Any chance us little guys get GBAS Approaches

[McMooney]

Just noticed all the GBAS approaches for IAH, any chance us little guys will ever get that capability?

[kris_adams]

Since I had to look up gbas to even know what it is, I’m guessing it will be a while!  The equipment list sounds expensive too

[N201MKTurbo]

It looks like Avidyne and Garmin could implement them with a software change. If their hardware is capable of decoding the VHF data messages.

[N201MKTurbo]

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 7:49 PM, McMooney said:

Just noticed all the GBAS approaches for IAH, any chance us little guys will ever get that capability?

Do you fly into Houston or Newark very often?

[McMooney]

actually, i'm based right next door to IAH.  Planning on getting the required touch and go in on an IAH runway this year.

Just thinking if this becomes popular, why not have the capability. 

[thinwing]

No..it's not going to happen anytime this century

[tony]

WAAS made GBAS obsolete.

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, tony said:

WAAS made GBAS obsolete.

Not quite, although WAAS has provided thousands of near-CAT I approaches it can not offer the lower minima needed for CAT II, III and auto landing.  

GBAS, formerly known in the USA as LAAS,  is still likely to replace or augment ILS CAT II and III.  Eventually.  

[tony]

Jerry, I think you should look at the new rules for enhanced vision.  If you can see the environment at the decision height, you can continue with the landing.  Its going to be a game changer.  I think the future will head in that direction and we will get away from land based aids.  

[Piloto]

Cat III approaches are all the way down to the flare controlled by the autopilot. The plane is equipped with triple redundancy ILS, DME, RALT (1ft resolution) and IRS. For GBAS/LAAS would ad triple GPS sensor. The crew need to be qualified and trained on Cat III approaches. The airport needs to have enhanced approach lights and radar. So I do not think this would be available on Mooney planes landing at Key West, FL.

José

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

Umm gbas, in english please.  What are they?  

Goombas?

[Jerry 5TJ]

GBAS = Ground based augmentation system 

LAAS = Local Area augmentation system

WAAS = what did you say? 

[Jerry 5TJ]

15 hours ago, tony said:

Jerry, I think you should look at the new rules for enhanced vision.  If you can see the environment at the decision height, you can continue with the landing.  Its going to be a game changer.  I think the future will head in that direction and we will get away from land based aids.  

Good suggestion & a possible outcome.  

My bet is it will go the way of self-driving cars & coupled approaches to touchdown will become the mandated norm.  Vision systems may become part of that implementation.   

Just like hand flying in RVSM airspace now, only done in emergency, I think Part 121 hand flown landings will become obsolescent.  

Me, I will fly out my days with 20th century manual landings.   

[tony]

37 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

hand flown landings will become obsolescent.  

 

sad but I think your right.... when the automation stops working , these next generation pilots  will be in trouble.  

Edited May 5, 2018 by tony

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

GBAS = Ground based augmentation system 

LAAS = Local Area augmentation system

WAAS = what did you say? 

Don't leave out SBAS!  That may supercede GBAS.

[Mooneymite]

21 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

ok im confused....

"we are getting rid of ground based systems as they are expensive to maintain and calibrate, etc etc". 

"We are moving to RNAV and satelite based systems as they are cheaper, etc etc"

isnt GBAS if GROUND based in direct contradiction to the " we are getting rid of ground based systems". Or have i missed something here.   

The key word is "augmentation".  GBAS and WAAS both use ground components for "augmentation".

Obviously, our space based system has a huge ground based infrastructure for comand, control and monitoring, but less than the gazillion different locations for VORTAC, NDB, or even LORAN/E-LORAN..

Just as CAT II/III ILS require location based components, so too, certain augmentation components.  SBAS tends to move it all heaven-ward again.

[N201MKTurbo]

GBAS is relatively cheap to implement. A single system transmitting on a single existing VHF NAV frequency can cover every approach at a big airport like KIAH. The airborne equipment is relatively simple also and gives a Big Bang for the buck.

There is no way we need that kind of precision unless we have CAT III autoland autopilots and I don't see that coming any time soon.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

ok im confused....

"we are getting rid of ground based systems as they are expensive to maintain and calibrate, etc etc". 

"We are moving to RNAV and satelite based systems as they are cheaper, etc etc"

isnt GBAS if GROUND based in direct contradiction to the " we are getting rid of ground based systems". Or have i missed something here.   

And once in a while people are reminded of how easy it is to jam space-based rnav in civil aviation, and then the ground infrastructure becomes more important again when the geopolitics starts getting crazy.

I'd like a small, inexpensive celestial navigation bulb to put on top of the airplane. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

20 minutes ago, EricJ said:

.....
I'd like a small, inexpensive celestial navigation bulb to put on top of the airplane. 

Rather than sticking your head up in the bubble and using a Napoleonic-era brass sextant and spherical trigonometry, a small electronic sensor can fix your position from sun or star sights automatically to within a few miles. 

Here is one:  

http://starnav.fr/site/en/electronic-sextant-g-stell/

[EricJ]

48 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Rather than sticking your head up in the bubble and using a Napoleonic-era brass sextant and spherical trigonometry, a small electronic sensor can fix your position from sun or star sights automatically to within a few miles. 

Here is one:  

http://starnav.fr/site/en/electronic-sextant-g-stell/

Yeah, like that!   I bet if it had a good IMU/AHRS in it ($15 retail), with a stabilization system for the optics it might get improved accuracy.   Maybe it already has that?   I don't see it available anywhere yet, though...   

[N201MKTurbo]

51 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Oh ive got one of those in AL, all the rage over here in Europe, you guys not got them then?  

Oh, cool! 

Can you post a video of an autoland approach in AL?

[N201MKTurbo]

49 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Yeah, like that!   I bet if it had a good IMU/AHRS in it ($15 retail), with a stabilization system for the optics it might get improved accuracy.   Maybe it already has that?   I don't see it available anywhere yet, though...   

Here is what you need:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/aira.php

 

[Mooneymite]

5 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Here is what you need:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/aira.php

Have you got a nice bubble sextant to use with those?

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

....I bet if it had a good IMU/AHRS in it ($15 retail), with a stabilization system for the optics it might get improved accuracy...   

Just epoxy an iPhone X to the top of your Mooney, craft a few lines of code and there you are.  

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Have you got a nice bubble sextant to use with those?

I actually have a Bendix AN-5851-1

I've never used it in the Mooney, but I have confirmed the location of my house.

Edited May 5, 2018 by N201MKTurbo