Fuel drain leaking UPDATED 5/10/18

[Mooneymite]

In my limited experience with bladders, the bladders themselves do not leak....if there is a leak, it is in one of the inter-bladder connections which can get compressed over time.  In my case, the "leak" showed up just like yours...at the low point drain.

On my aircraft, each of the bladder interconnects is accessible through one of the wing panels.  If they only leak when they are full, or nearly full, the gaskets on the bladder access ports need to be snugged up.  As I recall, none of these "repairs" required anything more than a couple of screwdrivers and about a half hour.  I had to re-torque some connections when I first got my Mooney.  The bladders were about 7 years old.  I have not had any issues in the last 20 years.

I will be interested to hear if your bladders are actually leaking and what caused the leak.  This would be the first bladder failure I've heard of on a Mooney.  Needless to say, I'm a big fan of bladders.

[Dream to fly]

4 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

In my limited experience with bladders, the bladders themselves do not leak....if there is a leak, it is in one of the inter-bladder connections which can get compressed over time.  In my case, the "leak" showed up just like yours...at the low point drain.

 

MR. Griggs basically said the same thing but in the case of my bladders they were removed and reinstalled by an A/P that was not set on details.  I tried to get a picture but could not get the lighting right but on the third bladder out from the root on the wing it is resting on a seam and you can see bare rivets touching the bladder.   I am still guessing at this point but I am thinking since the fuel level only drops that far the hole is in the bladder.  The other concern or indicator is the black flakes in the test samples. 

I think bladders are the way to go and have used them in multiple vehicles. I am in no way saying the bladders failed or are junk.  What I am saying is that installation is key to making them last along with keeping them full.  I will be posting as I can what we find, because I want them out so I PERSONALLY can inspect the wing and the bladders.  I am done with the band aid approach the previous owner used.

So far anything that has failed has been replaced not fixed or rebuilt its been new when available.

-lights - (LED)

-alternator

-starter

- hub and prop

- magnetos left and right

- vacuum pump

- airspeed indicator

- belly pan

- fuel valve

- fuel servo

- gear doors

- Wheels/ tires/ bearings

- calipers/ brake rotors/ pads

- flap pump and actuator

- trim screw block

- exhaust tail pipe and springs

- count-less  screws and SS hardware.

- Side window and seal

-

 

[Marauder]

MR. Griggs basically said the same thing but in the case of my bladders they were removed and reinstalled by an A/P that was not set on details.  I tried to get a picture but could not get the lighting right but on the third bladder out from the root on the wing it is resting on a seam and you can see bare rivets touching the bladder.   I am still guessing at this point but I am thinking since the fuel level only drops that far the hole is in the bladder.  The other concern or indicator is the black flakes in the test samples. 
I think bladders are the way to go and have used them in multiple vehicles. I am in no way saying the bladders failed or are junk.  What I am saying is that installation is key to making them last along with keeping them full.  I will be posting as I can what we find, because I want them out so I PERSONALLY can inspect the wing and the bladders.  I am done with the band aid approach the previous owner used.
So far anything that has failed has been replaced not fixed or rebuilt its been new when available.
-lights - (LED)
-alternator
-starter
- hub and prop
- magnetos left and right
- vacuum pump
- airspeed indicator
- belly pan
- fuel valve
- fuel servo
- gear doors
- Wheels/ tires/ bearings
- calipers/ brake rotors/ pads
- flap pump and actuator
- trim screw block
- exhaust tail pipe and springs
- count-less  screws and SS hardware.
- Side window and seal
-
 

You might want to check with Terry (N6758N) about the installation. Terry is an IA and did his own tanks recently. He can certainly help you to understand how poorly the installation or reinstallation was done.


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[Marauder]

And BTW — Grigg’s are great to work with. Very responsive and will work on the phone to walk through the troubleshooting. I upgraded my caps to the newer locking style caps. Work great!




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[Dream to fly]

@Marauder,  If you keep showing me what I could have you might have to adopt me and we can share one plane.....

[Dream to fly]

So today I removed the bladders with my AP.  Not difficult as much as time consuming and a lot of deep breathing and meditation when following the destructive trail the previous owner AP left behind.  This plane is just full of surprises and at least I have a sense of humor.  The 6 bladders were installed in 1991 and look as good and are as soft as the day they were installed. The extension tanks were added in 2011 and look to be fine also.  The problem was mostly installation error and sloppy careless blatant dis-regard for proper procedures.  The leaks were coming from multiple places along with the drains, and the four sending units. Two of the bladders were leaking from the connection tubes.  Not because of bladder failure but because ZIP TIES WERE USED to attach them to the tubes.  I wasn't there when they were being installed but I sure the hell wish I was.  I have a BAT that would have struck that idiot so hard he would have seen the 4 dimension in 3D.  I'm sure they were installed properly in 1991 and the logs show no issues until 2011 when the extensions were installed by the previous owner.  That is when the evidence is overwhelming. 

First the factory install from O&N use a green fuel tape that is very well applied and prevents the foam that cushions the bladders from moving.  All the holes that the tubes pass thru have a plastic guard installed to prevent rubbing,  The factory used these.  Also any sharp edges or areas of concern were covered well from O&N.  No questions they do/did great work!!

Now where the issue comes in is where the 4th bag install caused all the problems.  The previous owner used silver duct tape and foam from what looks like a pillow to protect the bladders.  Where the tubes pass thru the spars he used rubber "garden" hose.   Instead of using stainless steel ideal clamps he used auto clamps and zip ties.  So for 20 years the original install was perfect.  Let and idiot work his magic and seven years later it falls apart. 

TO fix this I am removing all bags and removing all silver duct tape and foam pillows.  Installing all new correct foam and using the proper tape and grommets.  Having already inspected the spar and the interior wings from all inspection holes there is ZERO evidence of corrosion or structural damage from 27 years of bladder usage.  Plus one for bladders. 

Also the drains were supposed to have O-rings instead they had a sealant used.  Basically it all was extension tank installation error. 

PS.  How do you stop the pin from falling out of the door handle.  You use green body shop tape to hold it in.  That is what I am dealing with....

[Marauder]

So today I removed the bladders with my AP.  Not difficult as much as time consuming and a lot of deep breathing and meditation when following the destructive trail the previous owner AP left behind.  This plane is just full of surprises and at least I have a sense of humor.  The 6 bladders were installed in 1991 and look as good and are as soft as the day they were installed. The extension tanks were added in 2011 and look to be fine also.  The problem was mostly installation error and sloppy careless blatant dis-regard for proper procedures.  The leaks were coming from multiple places along with the drains, and the four sending units. Two of the bladders were leaking from the connection tubes.  Not because of bladder failure but because ZIP TIES WERE USED to attach them to the tubes.  I wasn't there when they were being installed but I sure the hell wish I was.  I have a BAT that would have struck that idiot so hard he would have seen the 4 dimension in 3D.  I'm sure they were installed properly in 1991 and the logs show no issues until 2011 when the extensions were installed by the previous owner.  That is when the evidence is overwhelming. 
First the factory install from O&N use a green fuel tape that is very well applied and prevents the foam that cushions the bladders from moving.  All the holes that the tubes pass thru have a plastic guard installed to prevent rubbing,  The factory used these.  Also any sharp edges or areas of concern were covered well from O&N.  No questions they do/did great work!!
Now where the issue comes in is where the 4th bag install caused all the problems.  The previous owner used silver duct tape and foam from what looks like a pillow to protect the bladders.  Where the tubes pass thru the spars he used rubber "garden" hose.   Instead of using stainless steel ideal clamps he used auto clamps and zip ties.  So for 20 years the original install was perfect.  Let and idiot work his magic and seven years later it falls apart. 
TO fix this I am removing all bags and removing all silver duct tape and foam pillows.  Installing all new correct foam and using the proper tape and grommets.  Having already inspected the spar and the interior wings from all inspection holes there is ZERO evidence of corrosion or structural damage from 27 years of bladder usage.  Plus one for bladders. 
Also the drains were supposed to have O-rings instead they had a sealant used.  Basically it all was extension tank installation error. 
PS.  How do you stop the pin from falling out of the door handle.  You use green body shop tape to hold it in.  That is what I am dealing with....

Thanks for the update. Good to hear that it was not an O&N installation issue.


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[Dream to fly]

All i can say is OMG. 

The worst is I had a pre buy done but what I thought was a reputable AP that owns a very busy FBO. Unfortunately this is the same company that in the end charged me 4200 dollar s to replace two oil lines and an oil cooler. It has been a very expensive learning lesson but now that I have a better understanding things will be right from here on out. At least the wing spar and the steel frame are clean. Everything else can be replaced.

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[Dream to fly]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, Marauder said:

And BTW — Grigg’s are great to work with. Very responsive and will work on the phone to walk through the troubleshooting. I upgraded my caps to the newer locking style caps. Work great!




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Ok @Marauder the wife likes your caps!  So where did you get them?  Looks as though I'll have to like them too

[Marauder]

And BTW — Grigg’s are great to work with. Very responsive and will work on the phone to walk through the troubleshooting. I upgraded my caps to the newer locking style caps. Work great!

[mention=9886]Marauder[/mention] the wife likes your caps!  So where did you get them?  Looks as though I'll have to like them too

Grigg’s baby, all things Grigg’s. $390 a set if I recall correctly.


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[Dream to fly]

SO GRIGGS IS MY HERO!!  Got everything ordered and should be here Friday including the sleek looking fuel caps that @Marauder so innocently displayed!!!!!  Just for info if anyone else is interested the green fuel tape is near impossible to find so Gorilla tape is used and fuel soaked foam should be replaced. 

Tape 3 rolls - $24.00 Local hardware store

Foam inserts cut and punched to fit - $300  Griggs

Sleek locking fuel caps (good for 7 knots)  - $190 each 

Labor figuring 3hr removal and 4hr install per wing.  Haven't broke a sweat yet and it is pretty easy work just have to take your time. 

Four digital sending units -  Contacted CiES directly

Stainless clamp box of 20 - $18.00

 

[Marauder]

12 minutes ago, Dream to fly said:

SO GRIGGS IS MY HERO!!  Got everything ordered and should be here Friday including the sleek looking fuel caps that @Marauder so innocently displayed!!!!!  Just for info if anyone else is interested the green fuel tape is near impossible to find so Gorilla tape is used and fuel soaked foam should be replaced. 

Tape 3 rolls - $24.00 Local hardware store

Foam inserts cut and punched to fit - $300  Griggs

Sleek locking fuel caps (good for 7 knots)  - $190 each 

Labor figuring 3hr removal and 4hr install per wing.  Haven't broke a sweat yet and it is pretty easy work just have to take your time. 

Digital sending units - Still looking for a supplier

Block off plates for outer sending units - $20.00 each

Stainless clamp box of 20 - $18.00

 

I am glad that I can help spend your money. As for digital senders, I would go with the CiES senders (not sure what engine analyzer you have). A question for you. I thought all of the mid bodies (F, G & J)  model were required to have 4 senders. Did you plane not have 4 to begin with?

[Dream to fly]

27 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I am glad that I can help spend your money. As for digital senders, I would go with the CiES senders (not sure what engine analyzer you have). A question for you. I thought all of the mid bodies (F, G & J)  model were required to have 4 senders. Did you plane not have 4 to begin with?

It does have four and I sold the 830 and am getting the 900.  I can't figure out how four sending units would work if they are digital.  I can't seem to get JPI to answer that question so I was going ahead removing the outer sending unit and using the inner ones to register half tank to empty.  With a fuel flow monitor it will calculate used anyway.  Is this wrong?

[Marauder]

It does have four and I sold the 830 and am getting the 900.  I can't figure out how four sending units would work if they are digital.  I can't seem to get JPI to answer that question so I was going ahead removing the outer sending unit and using the inner ones to register half tank to empty.  With a fuel flow monitor it will calculate used anyway.  Is this wrong?

Since you are going with the 900,I would definitely consider the CiES senders running in frequency mode. That is what I did. The two outside senders are connected to the inner ones and if you don’t have the outside senders, you will not see a fuel quantity change until the fuel level burns down enough to register on the inside senders.

The CiES are extremely accurate and have eliminated the “fuel mismatch” error that I was seeing on my 900. When I say “accurate”, I mean it is less than 0.5 gallons off on any fill up.


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[Dream to fly]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

 

Since you are going with the 900,I would definitely consider the CiES senders running in frequency mode. That is what I did. The two outside senders are connected to the inner ones and if you don’t have the outside senders, you will not see a fuel quantity change until the fuel level burns down enough to register on the inside senders.

The CiES are extremely accurate and have eliminated the “fuel mismatch” error that I was seeing on my 900. When I say “accurate”, I mean it is less than 0.5 gallons off on any fill up.


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Ok so CiES makes two for the inner and two for the outer position and the EDM will register this setup???  I can't seem to get a straight answer from JPI tech support. I am on the phone with them right now

[Dream to fly]

Ok  so just spoke to Tim at JPI.  The 900 I got quoted for and installation notes for is not frequency inputs or four sender input.  So I need to get four sending units and have JPI send me the correct programmed unit.  Tim cleared up the mix-up.  I ended up ordering this myself and missed two questions.  Once again Thanks nothing like getting it right the third time.

 

[Marauder]

Ok  so just spoke to Tim at JPI.  The 900 I got quoted for and installation notes for is not frequency inputs or four sender input.  So I need to get four sending units and have JPI send me the correct programmed unit.  Tim cleared up the mix-up.  I ended up ordering this myself and missed two questions.  Once again Thanks nothing like getting it right the third time.
 

If you purchased the unit from someplace like Aircraft Spruce you will see a JPI frequency option for the CiES senders. It is made up of a software update and a wiring harness.

If you are going through the entire bladder system, it makes sense consider going with new senders. Like I mentioned earlier, with the factory senders I was getting a fuel mismatch error. There is a thread on the site that I started that talks about the installation process. Here is what they look like.



Little more modern than the resistive ones.




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[MIm20c]

@Marauder is suggesting the best way. You could also use the current sensors and run the resistance lines in series like the install manual specifies. Taking a pair of sensors out because the install might be slightly hard seems like something the PO would do, not the do it right attitude you’ve had. Keep up the good work, it’s going to be one sorted out aircraft when you get done. 

[Dream to fly]

15 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

@Marauder is suggesting the best way. You could also use the current sensors and run the resistance lines in series like the install manual specifies. Taking a pair of sensors out because the install might be slightly hard seems like something the P.O. would do, not the do it right attitude you’ve had. Keep up the good work, it’s going to be one sorted out aircraft when you get done. 

Definitely agree.  I think I've got the answer I need now and I have someone who is versed in this that is willing to help.  I am putting 4 CiES sensors in and getting the EDM correctly setup for my install.  As for doing it with two sensors it would work and the rule is the gauge has to read empty.  It would be stupid accurate from half tank down and not move off full till half tank.  I wasn't looking forward to that setup considering I am doing everything else by the book but I couldn't get a straight answer from JPI till I spoke to Tim.  There product is killer in design and I am sure a good product but depending on who you talk to there is definitely confusion.   Thanks @Marauder for showing me the setup and clarifying the system. 

[MIm20c]

1 minute ago, Dream to fly said:

Definitely agree.  I think I've got the answer I need now and I have someone who is versed in this that is willing to help.  I am putting 4 CiES sensors in and getting the EDM correctly setup for my install.  As for doing it with two sensors it would work and the rule is the gauge has to read empty.  It would be stupid accurate from half tank down and not move off full till half tank.  I wasn't looking forward to that setup considering I am doing everything else by the book but I couldn't get a straight answer from JPI till I spoke to Tim.  There product is killer in design and I am sure a good product but depending on who you talk to there is definitely confusion.   Thanks @Marauder for showing me the setup and clarifying the system. 

JPI CS is not ideal...

If you used 2 sensors it would not work with the JPI. As the fuel burns off the totalizator would read correctly but the wing level would not change.  This would give you a mismatch error on every flight. The error might occur with 4 older sensors but would definitely cause problems with 2 if your plane has more than 50 gal capacity (longer period where the fuel shows full). 

[ArtVandelay]

You can turn off the fuel checking, so you don’t get the mismatch error.

[Marauder]

JPI CS is not ideal...

If you used 2 sensors it would not work with the JPI. As the fuel burns off the totalizator would read correctly but the wing level would not change.  This would give you a mismatch error on every flight. The error might occur with 4 older sensors but would definitely cause problems with 2 if your plane has more than 50 gal capacity (longer period where the fuel shows full). 

 

Bob Belville’s E was certified with 2 senders instead of the 4 on my F. What he reports is that he is not getting no error message on the JPI 930 just that the fuel quantity stays at full fuel until he burns it down a bit and then it stays accurate from that point on.

 

With the 4 senders, as soon as I burn a gallon, it is displayed. Bob pointed out that although the fuel gauges report in whole gallons, the actual raw data shows it in 0.1 gallon increments. When I see something like the picture below, the totalizer shows a little bit more used but when I looked at the raw data, the different may only be a few tenths of a gallon off. I’m more than satisfied with that.

 

 

Here are a couple of the JPI problems I encountered with the resistive senders.

 

Sometimes I would see the fuel quantity completely disappear.

 

 

And other times I would get the fuel mismatch. The fuel mismatch raised my spidey senses when I was trying to burn the fuel quantity down below 5 gallons so I could drain the tanks to install the new senders. In this picture you can see I had burned over 40 gallons on the totalizer but the left tank was showing 21 gallons left. Should have been 6.

 

 

 

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[carusoam]

We need to get a dedicated JPI Customer Service person... maybe Tim is our guy?

 

They have a great product, but it takes a fair amount of tribal knowledge...

• to buy it properly
• set it up properly
• install it properly
• use it properly
• Get data out of it properly
• Integrate with FF and GPS properly
• when needed, problem solve properly

 

@fuellevel is our Cies guy...

Thanks to Bob, Chris, Terry, Joe, Dave/Deb, and everyone that has voiced challenges, solutions, write-ups and pics....

We finally have a modern day solution to the age old challenge of knowing how much fuel is actually still in our tanks, with a solid back-up system (FF/totalizer), a predictor Of fuel required to get to the end,  and an anunciator system when our internal calculator/memory fails... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Dream to fly]

Parts are starting to arrive.    Got my shiny new fuel caps, all the foam,  new lock cylinder installed, all the trim pieces repaired, replaced or cleaned (thanks to my wife)  JPI and Cies senders on the way along with a lot of other goodies. 

The plan Saturday is to:  Hope to get pictures as we go

-  Reline the wings in foam and use the gorilla tape recommended by Griggs and get the bladders reinstalled.

- Remove the entire copilot panel and remove all the old gauges wires and what ever else.  Fit new template in place

- Remove the audio panel, the KLX135, and intercom

- Remove all the old tape and wires that are in the floor and walls.  Install new sealing tape and clean and prime/paint.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I reckon my EDM900 and CiES senders are the best speed mod in my 252. I can now skip fuel stops because I always know exactly quantity and location of my fuel.