What do you think of this crazy J??

[KSMooniac]

If that is the market for upgraded planes, I'm all for it! It's good for all of us if it can bring that kind of money. The pool of airframes continues to shrink, but we might be on the cusp of more affordable avionics and autopilots that will make it more viable to modernize our existing fleet before they get scrapped. If they sell for this ballpark, that should be a good incentive.

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[PTK]

1 hour ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

...personally think you can't go much wrong with this airplane if you are looking for a fly away plane which has all the big mods and upgrades done by now...

Personally I think you can go very much wrong paying to dollar for sudden engine stoppage damage with under 300 hours on the repair. And very much wrong paying top dollar for old Aspens that have no upgrade path.

Since when do DH planes sell at for premium $$ ? And we can’t generalize. Each plane has to be evaluated on its own merits. For the record I said that I have no issue whatsoever paying premium $$ for the right airplane. This is not the one.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

On 23.3.2018 at 5:53 PM, PTK said:

And very much wrong paying top dollar for old Aspens that have no upgrade path.

I was not aware that there are such Aspens. Mine is now 3 years old and it should very well be upgradable, in terms of SVT or whatever. Are there Aspens which are not? News to me. If so, yes, that is an issue, similarly to GNS boxes which are no longer repairable.

As for the sudden stoppage  inspection: I suppose that is what it is done for, otherwise engine manufacturers could go and say you have to do a factury remanufacturing after any sudden stoppage? I bet they would love this but it would also get a lot of people who have an incident into massive trouble. So what is the safe range in your book if 300 hours is not enough to assure the repair was done properly? Will you refuse any engine which has had a sudden stoppage? Of course you can do that, but is that really justified seeing how these inspections/repairs are done? I've seen several here and I would trust the company which does the inspection.

I've also been wondering about damage history, at least where I fly. If every gear up landing results in a commercial write off even though it is easily repairable and will result in a new prop and at least a sudden stoppage inspection, then what is the point of repairing an airplane after that? Over here, inspections of such repairs are very strict indeed and some airplanes will end up better than before. Clearly, there are damages which are different, such as wing repairs or severe damage repairs, but a gear up? Should it really half the value of a plane properly repaired? I know that my plane had a gear up some 30 years ago but I can't say that there is anything left on it but the log entry which refers to that, so should that log entry cause a massive loss of value? I don't agree.

Clearly, these are issues which need to be addressed and checked also while looking at the logs and the PPI results.

 

Also to those who said it was appropriately priced yes I saw that. And my observations were rather of a general nature there. I already said what happened to me when I put the plane for sale and I found offers of less than 20% of the asking price simply impertinent. If there is no difference made between a original avionics airplane and one with recent engine and current avionics, then it is clear why a lot of people never bother to upgrade and also do the absolute minimum on maintenance when they know they will sell on in a few years. In the end it does not help the buyers.

[Bravoman]

I am no expert in Js but I would think that the asking price of the subject bird would be the top end value for the series, i.e. a 98 mse with modern avionics and no damage history. At that price you are into early model ovation and Bravo territory.

[PTK]

5 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

I was not aware that there are such Aspens. Mine is now 3 years old and it should very well be upgradable, in terms of SVT or whatever. Are there Aspens which are not? News to me. If so, yes, that is an issue, similarly to GNS boxes which are no longer repairable.

As for the sudden stoppage  inspection: I suppose that is what it is done for, otherwise engine manufacturers could go and say you have to do a factury remanufacturing after any sudden stoppage? I bet they would love this but it would also get a lot of people who have an incident into massive trouble. So what is the safe range in your book if 300 hours is not enough to assure the repair was done properly? Will you refuse any engine which has had a sudden stoppage? Of course you can do that, but is that really justified seeing how these inspections/repairs are done? I've seen several here and I would trust the company which does the inspection.

I've also been wondering about damage history, at least where I fly. If every gear up landing results in a commercial write off even though it is easily repairable and will result in a new prop and at least a sudden stoppage inspection, then what is the point of repairing an airplane after that? Over here, inspections of such repairs are very strict indeed and some airplanes will end up better than before. Clearly, there are damages which are different, such as wing repairs or severe damage repairs, but a gear up? Should it really half the value of a plane properly repaired? I know that my plane had a gear up some 30 years ago but I can't say that there is anything left on it but the log entry which refers to that, so should that log entry cause a massive loss of value? I don't agree.

Clearly, these are issues which need to be addressed and checked also while looking at the logs and the PPI results.

 

Also to those who said it was appropriately priced yes I saw that. And my observations were rather of a general nature there. I already said what happened to me when I put the plane for sale and I found offers of less than 20% of the asking price simply impertinent. If there is no difference made between a original avionics airplane and one with recent engine and current avionics, then it is clear why a lot of people never bother to upgrade and also do the absolute minimum on maintenance when they know they will sell on in a few years. In the end it does not help the buyers.

Your Aspen is 10 year old technology with no hardware upgrade path. (GNS boxes do not pertain to this discussion  but fyi they are repairable and upgradeable to GTN boxes at owner's discretion.)

As for the sudden stoppage it depends on the detail level to which it was addressed and what was done and not done. SB533C spells it out. But Lycoming also gives a lot lattitude and leaves it to mechanic's discretion. Was it a bare minimum just to get it legal or was it done in detail as per the SB? Was the crankshaft replaced? Did the crank, connecting rods, case, gears, etc undergo NDI? All this detail is important to me. As far as what's a safe range of hours that is subjective. Depends on your comfort level. To me there is no safe range unless parts were replaced. The safety of my pax and my piece of mind is my top priority. There have been catastrophic crank failures from prop strikes that happened many hundreds of hours and many years prior.  Show me the details and we'll talk about price later...if we get that far.

As far as helping buyers, listing a plane at the very top of the price range and not disclosing the very recent sudden stoppage DH does not impress.

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

Your Aspen is 10 year old technology with no hardware upgrade path. (GNS boxes do not pertain to this discussion  but fyi they are repairable and upgradeable to GTN boxes at owner's discretion.)

Yeah, we get it Peter, you don't like Aspens.

BTW, the GNS boxes are repairable, for now, unless you need a new display screen.  If that's the case, it's a boat anchor.

And as far as upgradeable to the GTN, that requires an avionics shop/Garmin dealer to rewire the radio stack and install a new tray.  If you truly wanted upgradeable, you'd advocate for the Avidyne which is slide-in replaceable, by the owner, instead of shelling out big $$$ to the avionics shop.  And you get a better trade-in value, as well.

[PTK]

On 3/25/2018 at 11:09 AM, Andy95W said:

Yeah, we get it Peter, you don't like Aspens.

BTW, the GNS boxes are repairable, for now, unless you need a new display screen.  If that's the case, it's a boat anchor.

And as far as upgradeable to the GTN, that requires an avionics shop/Garmin dealer to rewire the radio stack and install a new tray.  If you truly wanted upgradeable, you'd advocate for the Avidyne which is slide-in replaceable, by the owner, instead of shelling out big $$$ to the avionics shop.

Andy,  I have nothing against Aspen. I do have legitimate reasons why I wouldn't consider it today. I just don't like to pay a premium for old technology. Do you? Hopefully Aspen will introduce a brand new box...soon. If they did I would definitely consider it. Rumor has it they may have something new coming down the pike i.e. Evolution 5. 

[Andy95W]

[Urs_Wildermuth]

3 hours ago, PTK said:

Your Aspen is 10 year old technology with no hardware upgrade path

Ok, so you would not buy Aspens or any plane equipped with it. Fine, your choice. I am very happy with my Aspen, it certainly beats the 30 year old technology I had in there before. Why would I want to upgrade an Aspen? Either in such a case you go for a G500 type display (and I wonder if that is upgradable?) or look for a G1000 plane in the first place. Would you find one for this kind of price? I doubt it.

3 hours ago, PTK said:

As for the sudden stoppage it depends on the detail level to which it was addressed and what was done and not done. SB533C spells it out.

Exactly. And what I would like to know in such a case is who did the repair and what the rep of that shop is. Clearly there is a difference between American shops and the ones I know here. If I send my engine for any prescribed maintenance work to any engine shop in Switzerland, I can expect full compliance with the SB's and what ever else is prescribed. If you doubt any work on any airplane, then it is a showstopper anyhow, that is why all of us here said pending PPI and logs e.t.c.

3 hours ago, PTK said:

To me there is no safe range unless parts were replaced. The safety of my pax and my piece of mind is my top priority. There have been catastrophic crank failures from prop strikes that happened many hundreds of hours and many years prior.

Ok, so that is your take on it, no problem with that. Clearly everyone has to know for himself what he can accept and what not. I know of cases where fully overhauled engines done by reputable companies developed a fault some time down the road. In the end, the larger question in any SEP is whether one wants to bet on that one engine or not. Otherwise, there are plenty of Senecas out there.

3 hours ago, PTK said:

not disclosing the very recent sudden stoppage DH does not impress.

Well, obviously the OP knew about it fast as he quotes it in his first post here even before looking at the logs.

If the going is that the moment you mention a DH in an add you might as well part out, then no wonder people will not mention them. As long as they are upfront about it once customers inquire, they are subject to any PPI anyhow.

But nobody forces no-one to buy a second hand plane. After all, Mooney is selling brand new airplanes today so who wants to go all the way safe is in good hands there.

[gsxrpilot]

[toto]

On 3/22/2018 at 11:14 AM, LANCECASPER said:

Here's a Mooney ad from November 1987. They were making a basic IFR 201 back then and advertising it for $98,900 with an autopilot (KAP100).

Ooh, this is fun. @LANCECASPER do you have a resource for old Mooney print ads? Are they archived somewhere online?

I spent about 60 seconds trying to Google it but didn't come up with much. 

[LANCECASPER]

11 minutes ago, toto said:

Ooh, this is fun. @LANCECASPER do you have a resource for old Mooney print ads? Are they archived somewhere online?

I spent about 60 seconds trying to Google it but didn't come up with much. 

First I googled different months of that year. I tried November.                "flying magazine mooney november 1987"

Under the choices that came up it brought me here:          https://books.google.com/books?id=J8_WcHgu6RQC&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=flying+magazine+mooney+november+1987&source=bl&ots=lu0oyD6Jgr&sig=LuN8JKdbRDj368TSFSanG_ckzfw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp5eKNu4jaAhVQZKwKHXddCsYQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=flying magazine mooney november 1987&f=false

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, LANCECASPER said:

First I googled different months of that year. I tried November.                "flying magazine mooney november 1987"

Under the choices that came up it brought me here:          https://books.google.com/books?id=J8_WcHgu6RQC&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=flying+magazine+mooney+november+1987&source=bl&ots=lu0oyD6Jgr&sig=LuN8JKdbRDj368TSFSanG_ckzfw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp5eKNu4jaAhVQZKwKHXddCsYQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=flying magazine mooney november 1987&f=false

Isn't the Internets great!

[Guest]

19 hours ago, PTK said:

Andy,  I have nothing against Aspen. I do have legitimate reasons why I wouldn't consider it today. I just don't like to pay a premium for old technology. Do you? Hopefully Aspen will introduce a brand new box...soon. If they did I would definitely consider it. But giving an old box a new name, as in Evolution 5 just to sound like G5, doesn't do it for me. What were they thinking?!

Speaking of old technology with no upgrade path, your Mooney fits right in.  A Type Certificate more than a half century old, powered by an antique engine.

Modern aircraft are built with modern composite materials, with lots of upgrade paths to better models like jets, they have modern things like parachutes, corrosion free airframes, leak free fuel tanks,  2 doors from birth, you get the idea.

Clarence

[PTK]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Speaking of old technology with no upgrade path, your Mooney fits right in.  A Type Certificate more than a half century old, powered by an antique engine.

Modern aircraft are built with modern composite materials, with lots of upgrade paths to better models like jets, they have modern things like parachutes, corrosion free airframes, leak free fuel tanks,  2 doors from birth, you get the idea.

Clarence

?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

?

"Andy,  I have nothing against Aspen. I do have legitimate reasons why I wouldn't consider it today. I just don't like to pay a premium for old technology "

Your Mooney is OLD technology.

Clarence

 

[ArtVandelay]

Your Mooney is OLD technology.

All piston airplanes are old technology, show me one with electronic ignition with variable timing, direct fuel injection, titanium alloys for heat/corrosion resistance, auto mixture control using O2 sensors, and has auto landing capability, pressurized cabin, avionics that don’t connect via serial twisted pair connections, etc...

[Marauder]

All piston airplanes are old technology, show me one with electronic ignition with variable timing, direct fuel injection, titanium alloys for heat/corrosion resistance, auto mixture control using O2 sensors, and has auto landing capability, pressurized cabin, avionics that don’t connect via serial twisted pair connections, etc...

I have flown in one of those. It had a modern auto engine with electronic control for everything. It was great. Right up to the point the electronic prop control went on the Wild size and the prop went supersonic. Scared the crap out of me.


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[PTK]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

"Andy,  I have nothing against Aspen. I do have legitimate reasons why I wouldn't consider it today. I just don't like to pay a premium for old technology "

Your Mooney is OLD technology.

Clarence

 

I have flown both the Cirrus and the Diamond. So called “new” technology airplanes. Not my cup of tea.

They pale in comparison to my Mooney. Timeless.

[Rumblestrip]

6 hours ago, teejayevans said:

All piston airplanes are old technology, show me one with electronic ignition with variable timing, direct fuel injection, titanium alloys for heat/corrosion resistance, auto mixture control using O2 sensors, and has auto landing capability, pressurized cabin, avionics that don’t connect via serial twisted pair connections, etc...

Sling2/4 with a UL350 engine?  Well till we get to the pressurized bit.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Rumblestrip

[BodyshopDave]

I just received work that this unit is now sold!  Congratulations to the new owner. Hopefully it serves them well. 

[gsxrpilot]

Someone got a really nice J.