Bad day for Mooney’s on Spruce Creek

[flyboy0681]

52 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I find it interesting that several people take the position that it is inexcusable and a gear up could never happen to them.  As I said earlier, I feel that it could happen to anyone including me, and the best way to avoid such things is to understand that, and therefore to humbly take every sincere action possible to avoid it by always being the humble student.

I take your tact, it could happen to anyone and the person who it is most likely to happen to is the one who gets distracted if for only a second.

I keep telling my wife that she has one job and one job only when flying with me, to ask me as we are approaching whether the gear is down.

[PTK]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I find it interesting that several people take the position that it is inexcusable and a gear up could never happen to them.  As I said earlier, I feel that it could happen to anyone including me, and the best way to avoid such things is to understand that, and therefore to humbly take every sincere action possible to avoid it by always being the humble student.

Good for you. But this is no time to be humble. This is the time to be assertive. Sit up straight and be in control. Barring some sort of failure, imo, it is inexcusable. My Vloext is 134 KIAS. The first thing that comes down is the gear. 

What I find interesting is the position some have is that it's a given. Gear up landings do and will continue to happen. This is one reason our insurance premiums are where they are. 

 

[Hank]

^ ^ ^ ^  figures . . . .

That's why I always feel the thump & check the light, check the light on base, then confirm the floor indicator on final. Even then, I miss some and make a panic check on short final or the flare (but only the light then, ready to shove the throttle in).

[Piloto]

Gear up warning buzzer can easily be mistaken by a stall warning, specially when turning base to final. The voice warning provides a distinctive indication of the type of warning.

José 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Pete,

I have never bent metal either, but I am amazed by your display of hubris and lack of humility on this issue. Good Lord I hope it never happens to you because you will absolutely never hear the end of it here on MooneySpace.

Jim

I’m amazed by the display of a lack of urgency in the attitude that forgetting to put the gear down just happens. Really?! Do we have better things to do when setting up for landing? It doesn’t just happen. It was allowed to happen. 

We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than saying “it just happens.” A much higher and professional standard.

[MyNameIsNobody]

14 minutes ago, PTK said:

I’m amazed by the lack of urgency in the attitude that forgetting to put the gear down just happens. Really?! Do we have better things to do when setting up for landing? It doesn’t just happen. It was allowed to happen. 

Triple down.  Do I hear a quad?  Going once....Going Twice...

(Here it comes). Truly testing my never wish bad things on anyone disposition...

[LANCECASPER]

Here we go again....

 

[Ftlausa]

35 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Gear up warning buzzer can easily be mistaken by a stall warning, specially when turning base to final. The voice warning provides a distinctive indication of the type of warning.

José 

If one is getting a stall warning on the base to final turn, then remedial training is indicated.  That is probably the worse time possible to be close to stalling.  A stall there means a whole different type of "gear up landing."   

[MyNameIsNobody]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

I’m amazed by the display of a lack of urgency in the attitude that forgetting to put the gear down just happens. Really?! Do we have better things to do when setting up for landing? It doesn’t just happen. It was allowed to happen. 

We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than saying “it just happens.” A much higher and professional standard.

No one is saying that gear up pilot error incidents “just happen”...but you Peter.  What people are saying is: Distractions DO HAPPEN that result in gear up pilot error.  You refuse to comprehend that these events can befall a competent pilot.  We are not talking about complacency.  It is your attitude that is just bizarre and frankly not rational.  You refuse to actively listen to what others are saying on this thread.  By saying “Those that have and” It is a warning.  A call to arms.  It is not an absolute statement.

Your statement “Do we have better things to do when setting up for landing”?  Really?

1. Door pops

2. Baggage door pops

3. Engine sputters

4. Baby screams/pukes

5. Dog freaks out

6. ATC says “Keep speed up 737 number 2 on 5 mile final.”

7. Turbulence or cross wind or gusty conditions.  Wind switches directions

8. Other traffic in pattern.

9. Someone lands in the other direction.

10.Distractions Peter.  You perhaps live in a sanitary world void of other events occurring.  I do not live in that world.  You can plan all day and be high minded and frankly judge mental, but I am calling you on it.

[MyNameIsNobody]

2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Pete,

I have never bent metal either, but I am amazed by your display of hubris and lack of humility on this issue. Good Lord I hope it never happens to you because you will absolutely never hear the end of it here on MooneySpace.

Jim

Never, never, never, never, never, never, never-Churchill

[MyNameIsNobody]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

Good for you. But this is no time to be humble. This is the time to be assertive. Sit up straight and be in control. Barring some sort of failure, imo, it is inexcusable. My Vloext is 134 KIAS. The first thing that comes down is the gear. 

What I find interesting is the position some have is that it's a given. Gear up landings do and will continue to happen. This is one reason our insurance premiums are where they are. 

 

You need to finish the friggin’ sentence.  What came after humble? “Take EVERY sincere action to avoid IT”. Reading comprehension 101 Pete.  Perhaps some remedial training.  I have a pile of wood that is a super training tool.  Let me know and I will help you out.

[exM20K]

12 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I recently put in the P2 system.   It is activated at a programmed airspeed (such as <85 knots) and has a male voice which states gear down is gear is safe and a female voice stating Gear, Gear if unsafe.  It remindes me to do Gumps a final time, and tug on the Johnson bar to insure it is indeed latched.  Seems to be a worthwhile investment.

John Breda

That is a great feature to add.  I believe the voice annunciation in the G1000 planes is a huge safety feature - "Check Gear....Check gear"  plus the horn is way more effective than horn alone.  Now, if I could only get her to shut up with the "Stall....Stall....Stall" stuff on short final at 1.25 Vso.

Edited March 12, 2018 by exM20K

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, Piloto said:

Gear up warning buzzer can easily be mistaken by a stall warning, specially when turning base to final. The voice warning provides a distinctive indication of the type of warning.

José 

completely agree - it can be mistaken for a lot of things.  A voice annunciation is almost impossible to ignore.

[Guitarmaster]

An interesting thread for sure.

 

I think that is Our obligation as Pilots to read about all the accidents that we possibly can find. Analyze them, armchair quarterback them if you will, but above all learn from them. Ask yourself if you can see yourself being put in the position of this particular pilot. Ask yourself if you can see yourself making the mistake that this particular pilot made.

In the airline's we do this all the time. It's called the ASAP program. I read this with great interest and always try to ask myself, "could I see myself doing this?"

To say that a gear-up landing won't happen to you is just plain foolish. Distractions happen. The annals of aircraft accidents prove that. There are many examples of competent, qualified pilots being distracted by something small and ending up destroying their aircraft. In the case of Eastern Airlines, it was nothing more than a burned-out light bulb in the landing gear indications. And there were three guys in that cockpit!

Frankly, it doesn't matter how many electronic gizmos you have to remind you of anything, if you are distracted, stressed, overtaxed your brain will focus on the task at hand and completely ignore whatever is screaming at you in your ear regardless of the sound. Evidence of this, the ATA 757 that went off the Runway in Midway.

The only way to prevent an accident like this is through training, procedures, and diligence. You have to have a final check as you're about to land. Even if it's nothing more than check that the gear is green. I even do this in the 737 even though we have a checklist on short final for it..

 

Above all, we all live in glass houses. There isn't a single one of us that hasn't screwed something up flying airplanes around. In my professional life, I am thankful everyday that I have another pilot sitting next to me to catch all of my errors.

 

In the case of this ovation, who knows what the distraction was. I think it's a fair bet to say that the pilot did not set out to land his airplane gear up though.

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[PTK]

22 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

No one is saying that gear up pilot error incidents “just happen”...but you Peter.  What people are saying is: Distractions DO HAPPEN that result in gear up pilot error.  You refuse to comprehend that these events can befall a competent pilot.  We are not talking about complacency.  It is your attitude that is just bizarre and frankly not rational.  You refuse to actively listen to what others are saying on this thread.  By saying “Those that have and” It is a warning.  A call to arms.  It is not an absolute statement.

Your statement “Do we have better things to do when setting up for landing”?  Really?

1. Door pops

2. Baggage door pops

3. Engine sputters

4. Baby screams/pukes

5. Dog freaks out

6. ATC says “Keep speed up 737 number 2 on 5 mile final.”

7. Turbulence or cross wind or gusty conditions.  Wind switches directions

8. Other traffic in pattern.

9. Someone lands in the other direction.

10.Distractions Peter.  You perhaps live in a sanitary world void of other events occurring.  I do not live in that world.  You can plan all day and be high minded and frankly judge mental, but I am calling you on it.

We’re talking about gear ups of epidemic proportions. It follows then according to your theory that we must have an epidemic of babies crying, dogs freaking out, doors popping and planrs landing in opposite directions. We don’t.

Sorry Churchill... no cigar!

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

Good for you. But this is no time to be humble. This is the time to be assertive. Sit up straight and be in control. Barring some sort of failure, imo, it is inexcusable. My Vloext is 134 KIAS. The first thing that comes down is the gear. 

What I find interesting is the position some have is that it's a given. Gear up landings do and will continue to happen. This is one reason our insurance premiums are where they are. 

 

I don't think you understood what I said.  I think we are in agreement.  I am sorry I am not using your words but the effect is identical - As they say - We are in violent agreement.

[MyNameIsNobody]

3 minutes ago, PTK said:

We’re talking about gear ups of epidemic proportions. It follows then according to your theory that we must have an epidemic of babies crying, dogs freaking out, doors popping and planrs landing in opposite directions. We don’t.

Sorry Churchill... no cigar!

Distractions are everywhere and absolutely do result in mishaps.  The statistics show this to be true.  The fact that individuals that do not wish to not extend the gear do indeed not extend the gear validates my hypothesis.  Can you show me some charts/graphs that show that distractions in the cockpit are not causing this “epidemic-your word not mine” of gear up incidents?

[co2bruce]

All I was saying if your flying by the numbers you should feel something off. If anything happens on final (like the long list of doors popping, babies puking, dogs freaking) GO AROUND! I know it can happen to anyone, but if it happens to you it is your fault. I do 3 GUMPS one approaching the airport, one on downwind, and one more after turning final. It may happen to me one day, but I try to do everything in my power to avoid it. 

[rpcc]

Not doubting these numbers, but is just seems very high rate of occurrence.  @kortopates  where are you getting your gear up reports from?  

Right now there are 12 M20's buzzing around per flightaware.  So average flights per day 24 over 365 days (just wild ass guess).  

Given 104 gear ups(2 per week) divided by 8800 flights per year gives you a likelihood of a 1% chance that your flight will land on its belly.

What's a gear up cost - 20k on average?  With this math that's 2mm per year that premiums need to cover.  That seems like enough incentive to somehow solve or reduce the likelyhood of these.   

My numbers are a complete guess, pick whatever you like. 

 

[kortopates]

29 minutes ago, rpcc said:

Not doubting these numbers, but is just seems very high rate of occurrence.  @kortopates  where are you getting your gear up reports from?  

Right now there are 12 M20's buzzing around per flightaware.  So average flights per day 24 over 365 days (just wild ass guess).  

Given 104 gear ups(2 per week) divided by 8800 flights per year gives you a likelihood of a 1% chance that your flight will land on its belly.

What's a gear up cost - 20k on average?  With this math that's 2mm per year that premiums need to cover.  That seems like enough incentive to somehow solve or reduce the likelyhood of these.   

My numbers are a complete guess, pick whatever you like. 

 

I follow the 10 day rolling FAA accident and incident reports published by the FAA at https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:93:::NO:::  The NTSB doesn't track these because most are not accidents but incidents whereas the FAA does providing it gets reported, which is a certainty at a towered field but not always at an untowered field.

The report hasn't been updated for this morning last I looked, But we know we'll see at least one new one over the weekend, but its rare to not see a Mooney GU all week but not that uncommon to see multiples. Watch it for awhile and you'll see for your self.

Mooney GU insurance payouts generally run over $40K with the owner paying some portion for betterment value of prop or blade replacement and additional cost for engine overhaul parts if they so decide since insurance is already paying for a big portion of it. Given the expensive cost, there is a cutoff somewhere around $75K insured hull value where the insurance company will total the plane rather than repair it since they get back about 1/3 of the blue book value of an aircraft in salvage value after paying out the insured hull value.  

Edited March 12, 2018 by kortopates

[rpcc]

Thank you.  

 

 

[EricJ]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I follow the 10 day rolling FAA accident and incident reports published by the FAA at https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:93:::NO:::  The NTSB doesn't track these because most are not accidents but incidents whereas the FAA does providing it gets reported, which is a certainty at a towered field but not always at an untowered field.

The report hasn't been updated for this morning last I looked, But we know we'll see at least one new one over the weekend, but its rare to not see a Mooney GU all week but not that uncommon to see multiples. What it for awhile and you'll see for your self.

Mooney GU insurance payouts generally run over $40K with the owner paying some portion for betterment value of prop or blade replacement and additional cost for engine overhaul parts if they so decide since insurance is already paying for a big portion of it. Given the expensive cost, there is a cutoff somewhere around $75K insured hull value where the insurance company will total the plane rather than repair it since they get back about 1/3 of the blue book value of an aircraft in salvage value after paying out the insured hull value.  

Do you monitor other makes/models too and if so how do other complex aircraft compare in GU incident likelihood with Mooneys?

[Mooneymite]

As you "regulars" know, when these gear-up-landing discussions come up, I do not trust humans to put the gear down 100% of the time.  I've  seen what EGPWS has done for the airline/jet community.  Technology can fill in for human inattention.

Since the G-430 is installed in so many aircraft, it seems a fairly cheap software/connection change could make lights flash and horns (or voices) sound if the aircraft GPS altitude comes within 400'-500' of database field elevation with the gear not down.

Garmin?  A great addition to safety....

How about it?

 

 

 

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

As you "regulars" know, when these gear-up-landing discussions come up, I do not trust humans to put the gear down 100% of the time.  I've  seen what EGPWS has done for the airline/jet community.  Technology can fill in for human inattention.

Since the G-430 is installed in so many aircraft, it seems a fairly cheap software/connection change could make lights flash and horns (or voices) sound if the aircraft GPS altitude comes within 400'-500' of database field elevation with the gear not down.

Garmin?  A great addition to safety....

How about it?

EFBs could do this, too.   iFly complains about terrain unless you're in close proximity to the destination airport.   A configuration switch could change the warning to "gear" instead of "terrain" instead of just not complaining.

 

[kortopates]

31 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Do you monitor other makes/models too and if so how do other complex aircraft compare in GU incident likelihood with Mooneys?

Only locally do I monitor everything. But the problem isn't limited to Mooney's. At the 10 day FAA report I only monitor Mooney's and that's purely to help me as a Mooney specific instructor as well as a pilot. The FAA has certainly studied this issue at depth and although there is the occasional time a pilot simplify "forgot" without extenuating circumstances that is far from the norm. The fact is the majority of times the pilot was working real hard to ensure a safe outcome to a landing but had unusual stress factors (e.g., traffic, short approach, asked to keep speed up etc) not from the pilots choosing but stresses that altered the pilots routine and distracted the pilot from doing what they typically do 99.999% of the time and on that day their backup checks failed to catch that issue resulting in a gear up landing. Consequently, my take away is we need 3 things, we need to fly regularly (maintain proficiency) 2) we a need pattern for when and how the gear goes down (at FAF IFR, or entering the downwind VFR etc and waiting to see the gear green light actually come on, not just move the switch and move on)  and 3) we need multiple backup checks, such as at least 3 GUMPS including the one at short final to check the floor indicator (which is primary) to verify for at least second time the gear is really down just before landing.

So for example on the point of seeing the gear come down, when I see a client move the gear up switch on takeoff and not verify the gear actually came up, I'll pull the gear actuator CB on a subsequent takeoff and when they fail to notice the gear didn't come up in the climb we'll have something to talk about. But I've found it not believable to them that they'll miss it If I just to call it out. Doing it on takeoff has made the point well enough and I really don't want to do it on landing and risk turning it into one of the those training induced incidents. But in the end we're still human and subject to erring so a good voice annunciator could really save the day when your normal backups could otherwise fail us.  Its great insurance to reduce the odds which are always present no matter how good you are!

Edited March 12, 2018 by kortopates