Icing event.

[Marek7]

Hey guys, 

 

Just wanted to share personal experience for the team.   Planned a night ifr flight, no forecast or reported icing.   I have no anti ice on the m20k so I am pretty cautious about it.   In descent started noticing some vibration in the engine.  Was in the mountains so I got steped down pretty quick. Vibration went away but wing ice remained.    I think most of it built up on the wing in the first few minutes as I entered lower moist but warm air the ice turned from rime into a melted mixed.  

 

Of course it was night and the airfield just started to have this mixed precipitation (not for cast) 

Flying characteristics were actually not too affected. I had about 30 gal of fuel in the wings, 1 pax front seat and about 50 lbs of cargo.  I had no issues with full flap landing. Rounding out just below 80kts.

 

Windscreen did start to collect around the middle.  The sides were fine and I could see past. Eventually the de fog and warmer temps let it slide right off. 

 

Conclusions that I can draw from this are.  Don't rely on forecast for icing.  The CIP is quite good to be honest and I will be trusting that more in the future.  The Canadian gfa really let me down.  Rely on  atc as they were  quite helpful and  stepped me down to below the feeder altitude for the RNav. And if ice happens,  don't panic.  Turn on whateve equipment you have. Get to lower and hopefully she'll melt. In this particular situation I felt that controlability was not an issue. 

 

Fly safe! 

[N201MKTurbo]

I concur with your observations. Mooney's carry ice better than most people think. My rule of thumb was when the ice is thicker than the stall strips it is time to take some decisive action. Mind you this all took place back in the 80s when you could fly until there was a pirep of icing.

[aviatoreb]

32 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I concur with your observations. Mooney's carry ice better than most people think. My rule of thumb was when the ice is thicker than the stall strips it is time to take some decisive action. Mind you this all took place back in the 80s when you could fly until there was a pirep of icing.

That's all a great rule of thumb - until it isn't.

[N201MKTurbo]

8 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That's all a great rule of thumb - until it isn't.

True enough. It depends on the weather you are in and how variable it is and the rate of accumulation. If it builds to the stall strips in 1/2 hour in a stable weather system, it isn't a big deal. when it builds to that level in 30 seconds it is another story.

[kortopates]

I suspect the vibration was from prop ice. No electric prop deice?
Picking up a trace in descent is the least hazardous way to experience it; especially if you are able to descend to below freezing. You may have picked up more on the elevators though. But it’s harder to judge the loss of performance in a descent compared to level flight when you will notice a speed drop as accumulation increases.

One isn’t going to get cited for flying where there might be a pirep for icing or even forecasted icing conditions. It’s all about whether your plan had reasonable outs or plan B’s and you exercised them to get out of icing conditions. That’s perhaps overly simplistic but the FAA really leaves it up your judgement and planning.


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[exM20K]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I concur with your observations. Mooney's carry ice better than most people think. My rule of thumb was when the ice is thicker than the stall strips it is time to take some decisive action. Mind you this all took place back in the 80s when you could fly until there was a pirep of icing.

Your "rule of thumb" is illegal, dangerous, and barking up the wrong tree. Ice accumulates first on the horizontal tail. You do not have a good means to observe or measure it there, especially at night. Tailplane icing will lead to a tail stall if let go for too long, and a tail stall will make your plane into a lawn dart and you and your passengers who foolishly trusted you: dead. 

 

Did your rule of thumb contemplate the landing flap restrictions on FIKI planes?

 

Please fly a FIKI plane if you are flying in ice or stay clear of it. It's not that hard to do.

 

-dan

[N201MKTurbo]

23 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Your "rule of thumb" is illegal, dangerous, and barking up the wrong tree. Ice accumulates first on the horizontal tail. You do not have a good means to observe or measure it there, especially at night. Tailplane icing will lead to a tail stall if let go for too long, and a tail stall will make your plane into a lawn dart and you and your passengers who foolishly trusted you: dead. 

 

Did your rule of thumb contemplate the landing flap restrictions on FIKI planes?

 

Please fly a FIKI plane if you are flying in ice or stay clear of it. It's not that hard to do.

 

-dan

You should read what I wrote. I was talking about flying 30 years ago when it wasn't illegal. I fly by the rules. When I did this I was in my twenties and all I could was afford was an M20F. I was flying over 400 hours a year all year long. Back then you dealt with ice as best as you could. I gained a lot of valuable experience flying back then. I didn't have a death wish and never got into an icing situation that I thought was life threatening. I gained a lot of experience on reading the weather to make decisions about weather to go up, down or back where I came from. Which I did on quite a few trips. 

[exM20K]

30 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You should read what I wrote. I was talking about flying 30 years ago when it wasn't illegal. I fly by the rules. When I did this I was in my twenties and all I could was afford was an M20F. I was flying over 400 hours a year all year long. Back then you dealt with ice as best as you could. I gained a lot of valuable experience flying back then. I didn't have a death wish and never got into an icing situation that I thought was life threatening. I gained a lot of experience on reading the weather to make decisions about weather to go up, down or back where I came from. Which I did on quite a few trips. 

How about you read what I wrote.  Your rule of thumb *is*  illegal, dangerous, and barking up the wrong tree.  I made no mention of what was legal in the 80's, but since you bring it up, the only part you claim not true in the 80's is the "illegal" part.  Everything else was true, and I'm not certain about the legality then of droning along in icing.

You misunderstand what icing does to the airplane and how it creates a very real threat of loss of control - often near the ground.  To claim that 'Mooney's carry ice better than most people think' is dangerous and preposterous.  Have you polled "everybody?"  You evidently are not qualified to assess how well a Mooney aircraft carries ice, but I can assure you that the laminar flow surfaces do *not* carry ice well at all.  And airfoil degradation is only one of the many risks that comes with icing.  Think: pitot tube, control surface impingement, fuel vent plugging (not in modern mooneys, thankfully),  the weight of the ice, and more.

 

So let's use a well-established ADM rubric to evaluate your rule of thumb:

1. Antiauthority: Check
2. Impuslivity: Nope
3. Invulnerability: Check
4. Macho: Maybe
5. Resignation: Check 

Suggesting to other Mooney owners, who may have little or no experience flying in icing conditions, that the plane carries ice better than you think, and I didn't sweat it until I had a half inch on the wing is horrible advice.

 

Here's my advice after thirty years and 5000 hours of flying mostly in the Northeast and Midwest: in unprotected planes: stay out of ice. 

• If you see any icing accumulating, get out: up down or turn around. 
• Ice will form first on the tail and the nav light/strobe fences at the wingtips; sharp edges are the best early accumulators for most ice.
• Ice is where you find it.  Some of the worst I've experienced is in the summer in the tops of clouds.
• If you see a "Glory" in an undercast you're flying over and the temp is below freezing - you're going to be in icing unless you find a hole through which to descend
• Flying in icing is stressful - even in the TBM.  In a non-protected aircraft, it must be many times more so. Stress degrades ADM. Poor ADM raises the likelihood of a mishap.  

-dan

[golfpilot]

I find those who think they are most compliant to the ADM rubric and regulations to be the most dangerous pilots out there.



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[exM20K]

16 minutes ago, golfpilot said:

I find those who think they are most compliant to the ADM rubric and regulations to be the most dangerous pilots out there.



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You mean, like, ATP's, airline pilots, people who use an operations manual?
the data do not support your untutored prejudice.

 

 

[McMooney]

man aren't you an elitist snob.

Edited February 19, 2018 by McMooney

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

So let's use a well-established ADM rubric to evaluate your rule of thumb:

1. Antiauthority: Check
2. Impuslivity: Nope
3. Invulnerability: Check
4. Macho: Maybe
5. Resignation: Check 

You are totally wrong about what you are saying.

It was not anti-authority. It was completely legal and the way everybody who actually used a plane for transportation operated back then. Nobody wanted to be the first one to report ice unless it was a real hazard because you essentially closed that airway for non-FIKI aircraft for the rest of the day.

Invulnerability - no, I could tell you about some of the icing encounters that I had during instrument training and other times that snuck up on me that scared the hell out of me. I had a healthy respect for ice. What I'm talking about is droning along in trace rime.

Macho, perhaps you should look in a mirror.  

I was just trying to relay some of my experience with operating a Mooney in ice.

[exM20K]

30 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You are totally wrong about what you are saying.

It was not anti-authority. It was completely legal and the way everybody who actually used a plane for transportation operated back then. Nobody wanted to be the first one to report ice unless it was a real hazard because you essentially closed that airway for non-FIKI aircraft for the rest of the day.

Invulnerability - no, I could tell you about some of the icing encounters that I had during instrument training and other times that snuck up on me that scared the hell out of me. I had a healthy respect for ice. What I'm talking about is droning along in trace rime.

Macho, perhaps you should look in a mirror.  

I was just trying to relay some of my experience with operating a Mooney in ice.

"I was just trying to relay some of my experience with operating a Mooney in ice."

To what possible end? To encourage someone that "mooney's carry ice better than most people think?"  That's great!

Anti-authority: once you picked up ice, you were in known icing.  My recollection of the regs was not that you were permitted to plow along until you reached the stall strips. I could be wrong, of course.

 

Invulnerability - no, I could tell you about some of the icing encounters that I had during instrument training and other times that snuck up on me that scared the hell out of me. I had a healthy respect for ice. What I'm talking about is droning along in trace rime. 

No - you said originally: My rule of thumb was when the ice is thicker than the stall strips it is time to take some decisive action.  Here's the definition of "Trace," since you are evidently ignorant of it: 

Trace Ice becomes perceptible. Rate of accumulation is slightly greater than rate of sublimation. It is not hazardous even though de-icing/anti-icing equipment is not utilized, unless encountered for an extended period of time (over 1 hour).

 

Pray tell: how does "Trace" ice accumulate to 1/2 inch?

 

 

Macho? I follow rules and ADM rubrics.  I don't bust minimums.  I don't fly non-FIKI planes into icing.  If in unforecast, unreported icing in a non-FIKI plane, I'd immediately get the heck out of there.  Here's part AOPA's section on "Macho."  I've bolded the part relevant to this discussion.

Macho

Pilots must have a high degree of confidence in their ability to operate an airplane. Aviation is full of challenges: flight planning, decision making, computing, and navigating. Our training is designed to foster our self-image as competent, capable pilots. As aviation pioneer Beryl Markham wrote, "Success breeds confidence...." Each time we succeed in our flying, we have more confidence that we can do it again.

Sometimes our confidence outstrips our ability to safely fly the airplane. Especially when we have a strong desire to accomplish a goal, we can fool ourselves into believing that we can do something that is actually stretching the limits of our abilities.

-dan

Edited February 19, 2018 by exM20K

[exM20K]

30 minutes ago, McMooney said:

man aren't you an elitist snob.

If you're referring to me, then, no: I don't believe so.  I've not engaged in name-calling here, either.  You have.

 

[golfpilot]

You mean, like, ATP's, airline pilots, people who use an operations manual?
the data do not support your untutored prejudice.
 
 

Reality is airline pilots don’t follow the ADM as often as people think. When was the last time you heard a commercial airliner not flying because the pilots didn’t think it was safe?
Invulnerability check
Macho check
Resignation check
Impulsiveness check
ADM applies to GA pilot. Pilots who actually have a choice to fly or not fly.
Luckily those planes are built to withstand greedy flying.
Everybody breaks rules. Airplanes, cars, where you cross the street, file your taxes, I’d bet the house you break a rule somewhere.
The mere thought that you are completely compliant with anything is in and of itself not following the ADM checklist


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[Marek7]

Wow. I just wanted to share some stories of a personal experience for knowledge of the common good.   Play nice and keep the ad hominem to a minimum. 

 

I'd hope people aren't taking flying advice from a bunch of anonymous people on the internet.  There is value to both knowing the rules and explaining what happens when they are broken.  

 

Fly safe. 

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, golfpilot said:

Reality is airline pilots don’t follow the ADM as often as people think. When was the last time you heard a commercial airliner not flying because the pilots didn’t think it was safe?

 

I frankly have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Do you think that flying on a commercial airliner is inherently unsafe, so therefore all airline pilots are inherently suicidal?

Do you think that airline pilots fly aircraft that are unsafe, rather than cancel or delay a flight?

Do you think that airline pilots knowingly break rules and regulations and compromise safety?

Neither I, nor any airline pilot I know, has ever done any of those things.  I personally have cancelled or delayed flights that would have been legal but either I or another crew member thought it was unsafe, and I know many others who have done so as well.

(I've been flying Part121 operations for almost 20 years and way more hours than I need to prove the point.)

[jaylw314]

21 hours ago, exM20K said:

Here's my advice after thirty years and 5000 hours of flying mostly in the Northeast and Midwest: in unprotected planes: stay out of ice. 

• If you see any icing accumulating, get out: up down or turn around. 
• Ice will form first on the tail and the nav light/strobe fences at the wingtips; sharp edges are the best early accumulators for most ice.
• Ice is where you find it.  Some of the worst I've experienced is in the summer in the tops of clouds.
• If you see a "Glory" in an undercast you're flying over and the temp is below freezing - you're going to be in icing unless you find a hole through which to descend
• Flying in icing is stressful - even in the TBM.  In a non-protected aircraft, it must be many times more so. Stress degrades ADM. Poor ADM raises the likelihood of a mishap.  

-dan

Thank you for those tips--those are good things to keep in mind.

However, I almost ignored reading your post due to the sheer amount of hostility in the remainder of it.  If your goal is to improve safety in our brotherhood of pilots, saying things in a way that is likely to be heard is probably the best way of doing that.

I'll keep an eye on those wingtip fences, though--I hadn't thought about that before.

And thank you for the writeup, @Marek7!  Out here in the Northwest, we have a lot of forecast and unforecast icing.  I'm dreading my first significant encounter, but it's nice to know the it's not an immediate disaster...

Edited February 19, 2018 by jaylw314

[golfpilot]

I frankly have no idea what point you are trying to make here.
Do you think that flying on a commercial airliner is inherently unsafe, so therefore all airline pilots are inherently suicidal?
Do you think that airline pilots fly aircraft that are unsafe, rather than cancel or delay a flight?
Do you think that airline pilots knowingly break rules and regulations and compromise safety?
Neither I, nor any airline pilot I know, has ever done any of those things.  I personally have cancelled or delayed flights that would have been legal but either I or another crew member thought it was unsafe, and I know many others who have done so as well.
(I've been flying Part121 operations for almost 20 years and way more hours than I need to prove the point.)

Airline flights are one of the most safe ways to travel. That’s my point. Just because you can put a check next to a faa saftey acronym, doesn’t mean it isn’t safe


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[mooneygirl]

I am glad to read this initial post. I have to say that as a new  IFR pilot in an E model, icing is probably my biggest fear. The DPE I tested with said 10C/-10C is his rule and that I should plan on being 4000 feet below the freezing level.  That would mean I would not really be able to take off in some instances.

I am wondering what the best resource is for icing information/forecast.  I use Foreflight and NOAA. 

It was interesting to learn about the tail icing.  Thanks for all comments that are nice!  XXOO

[Cabanaboy]

 

 

[RobertE]

Marek7:

Thank you for your post.  All opinions are welcome by most of us here.

[Andy95W]

50 minutes ago, golfpilot said:

 

Airline flights are one of the most safe ways to travel. That’s my point. Just because you can put a check next to a faa saftey acronym, doesn’t mean it isn’t safe


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Thanks for clarifying, that wasn't my understanding of the original post.

[golfpilot]

Thanks for clarifying, that wasn't my understanding of the original post.

 

Ya I got a little carried away with my exaggeration

Just trying to say ADM and following the “law” isn’t the tell all sign of saftey

 

 

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[Andy95W]

Agreed- acronyms and rules don't make us safe, good judgement does.