gear down speed?

[rbridges]

my mooney is a '65, and I believe the gear down speed is <105 knots.  I thought I read they changed that to <120 in later pre-J models without any real changes in the setup.  Is that trued, and if it is, could I start lowering my gear at a little higher speed without any problems?

[scottfromiowa]

Max gear extension by my POH for 1966 M20E is 120 MPH.  I don't know if there was any change in the gear doors from 65-66 or if this was a blanket revision for pre-J models.  Mine is a Johnson Bar vs. electric gear aircraft.  I believe concern is for gear door damage vs. actual gear damage from extending at a higher speed.  I wouldn't risk it until I saw something in writing telling you 120mph is O.K.  Post when you know.  I'm curious as I can't visually tell any difference in gear from 65-66.

[Hank]

Be careful of your units! KNOTS vs. MPH will burn you . . .

My 1970 electric gear operating speed = gear down speed = 120 mph = 105 knots.

So you are right. Your gear speed is most likely 105 knots, which is THE SAME as 120 mph. Some J's and later models have higher gear speeds, some up in the 140-150 knot range where they are useful for slowing down. Mine are not . . . I get to slow down very slowly before dropping flaps and gear.

[Immelman]

The way I look at it, the gear system is something that requires maintenance, and has a lot of parts that wear over time. Why subject it to any unnecessary strain? I would stick the Vle/Vlo of your specific airplane, which like mine is 120mias.

I would make an exception to this in a suitable emergency. An inflight fire where I wasn't descending as fast as I wanted to would be one. At that point, the gear doors etc would be the least of my concerns.

[flight2000]

I took a quick tour through the TCDS and here's what I found for each model (I'm bored, what can I say...).  I agree with the others in that there's really no need to drop the gear faster than 120 mph in our older birds unless it's an emergancy.

M20 = 120 MPH

M20A = 120 MPH

M20B = 120 MPH

M20C = 120 MPH

M20D = 120 MPH

M20E = 120 MPH

M20F = 120 MPH

M20J = Here is where we see the first increases.

Landing gear retraction......................... 110 m.p.h. ( 96 knots) IAS
                      ** “ “ “............................123 m.p.h. (107 knots) IAS
Landing gear extension......................... 120 m.p.h. (104 knots) IAS
                    *** “ “ “............................152 m.p.h. (132 knots) IAS
                  **** “ “ “............................159 m.p.h. (138 knots) IAS

* Serial No’s. 24-0171 and on, (and 24-0002 through 24-00170 if S.B. M20-198 is complied with).
** Serial No’s. 24-0084, 24-0378 thru 24-TBA.
*** Serial No’s. 24-0084, 24-0378 thru 24-2999, 24-3079 thru 24-TBA (and previous S/N’s if SB M20-209 is complied ith).
**** Serial No. 24-3000 thru 24-3078.

M20K =

                                                  S/N 25-0001 thru -0889                    25-1000 and Up
Landing gear retraction..............122 m.p.h. (106 kts) IAS..............................106 KIAS
Landing gear extension..............150 m.p.h. (130 kts) IAS .............................140 KIAS
Landing gear extended ..............150 m.p.h. (130 kts) IAS ............................165 KIAS

M20L =

Landing gear retraction......................... 120 m.p.h. (106 knots) IAS
Landing gear extension......................... 150 m.p.h. (129 knots) IAS

M20M =

Landing gear retraction......................... 122 m.p.h. (106 knots) IAS
Landing gear extension......................... 161 m.p.h. (140 knots) IAS

M20R =

L.G. retraction .................................... 122 mph (106 knots) IAS
L.G. extension .................................... 161 mph (140 knots) IAS

M20S =

L.G. retraction ...................................................... 122 mph (106 knots) IAS
L.G. extension ...................................................... 161 mph (140 knots) IAS

M20TN =

L.G.retraction ....................................................... 122 mph (106 knots) IAS
L.G. extension ...................................................... 161 mph (140 knots) IAS

 

Curious if anyone caught the one that shouldn't belong up above....

[scottfromiowa]

Isn't < symbol "less than"?  Didn't the question state < or less than 105knots?

[Hank]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Isn't < symbol "less than"?  Didn't the question state < or less than 105knots?

[scottfromiowa]

Got it Hank.  I did NOT make the connection that you did regarding knots vs. MPH.  I bet that is the root of the confusion here.  Nice catch.

[rbridges]

You know, I may have been confusing knots and mph.  The arc on my air speed indicator is right around 105.  I read people saying 120, and I bet they were converting to mph.  I guess that answers my question.  thanks.

[Hank]

Quote: rbridge

The arc on my air speed indicator is right around 105.  I read people saying 120, and I bet they were converting to mph.

[flight2000]

Somewhere along the line someone must have gotten approval for the switch if your ASI is in knots only.  Mine is labled in both KTS (inner ring) and MPH (outer, primary ring).

[Larrynoel]

 

I don't know if it is only My 67C model but I find that my gear extends quite a bit easier the closer I am to 120 MPH.  I would never exceed 120 MPH but I do drop them at 120 MPH.  In my plane if I drop the gear down at around 100 MPH it takes more force on the handle to put them down. I believe  there is a flap extension speed difference on the 67 Mooney of 100 mph VFE and on later Mooneys theVFE was increased to 120 MPH.  Do not take my word for it fallow your POH!

[eaglebkh]

Quote: Larrynoel

 

I don't know if it is only My 67C model but I find that my gear extends quite a bit easier the closer I am to 120 MPH.

[Immelman]

Quote: eaglebkh

I think there is a correlation here with the ease of gear operation and airspeed: the faster you go, the easier to come down - the slower you go, the easier to go up.  I know most of us manual gear folks probably get that gear up right after lift off, because the gear is much harder to get up (for me at least) once the plane exceeds 80-85 mph.

[flight2000]

And how many of us catch a boat load of grief from the airfield peanut gallery for bringing the gear up so soon and being a "show off" and just asking for a gear up if the engine quits?  My normal reply is I can bring it down just as fast if I needed to....   Beating the rapidly increasing airspeed is the key to making it easy on the forearm.

If someone's never flown one of the manual gear Mooney's they have no idea how fast we can get the gear tucked away and dropped again.  I would almost venture a guess that we could do a full cycle before the electric driven gear is up...

[Hank]

Quote: eaglebkh

I think there is a correlation here with the ease of gear operation and airspeed: the faster you go, the easier to come down - the slower you go, the easier to go up.  I know most of us manual gear folks probably get that gear up right after lift off, because the gear is much harder to get up (for me at least) once the plane exceeds 80-85 mph.

[rbridges]

Quote: Hank

 Wow! Your '65 model is labeled in KNOTS? My '70 model is in MPH on the ASI, and all over the Owner's Manual. I have to wonder how that happened??? But then again, you have an E and I fly a C . . .

[flight2000]

Quote: Hank

Hmmm, it's exactly the opposite for me. To save my electric motors from extra stress, I drop flaps at 120, pull power to maintain level, then drop the gear.

But really, I thought all manual-gear Mooniacs had big, bulging right arms, no matter what the left one looked like??

[carusoam]

 "there is a correlation here with the ease of gear operation and airspeed: the faster you go, the easier to come down - the slower you go, the easier to go up.  I know most of us manual gear folks probably get that gear up right after lift off, because the gear is much harder to get up (for me at least) once the plane exceeds 80-85 mph" - Brandon

For manual gear...

At low speeds the springs overpower wind on the doors, making it easy to retract.

At high speeds wind on the doors overpower the springs, making it easy to extend.

It is designed that way.  It is not an accident.  Those mooney brothers were sharp.

Upon positive rate of climb, up go the wheels.  If the engine quits, the wheels go back incredibly quick compared to the old electric or hydraulicly powered systems....  you can always wait to the last second to get every inch of glide before dropping the gear.

Gear swings into place almost on its own at 120mph ias.

trying it at speeds higher than Vlo is probably where the saying "blow the doors off" comes from.  The J-Bar will move more forcefully through the cockpit with more pressure from the wind.

When the mooney manual gear is properly rigged and operated, it is nearly as smooth as any powered equipment.  (it's hard to beat electric for the modern feel - pull the switch and put it in the position you want).

As for bulging forearms... operating at less than optimal speeds, when you pull on the J-Bar, try not to push on the yoke, and vice versa.  When I first got my M20, I nearly came out of my seat pushing the J-Bar to the floor every time.

The peanut gallery, they are impressed at how fast three wheels can dissapear more than they are about when they dissappear.  If needed, they come right back.  The standard training about keep the wheels down in case, may not apply to the fast re-appearing mooney wheels..... ymmv.

Best regards,

-a-

[Gone]

I used to get grief from the peanut gallery too for pulling my gear up too soon.  But after this discussion, I may go back to my old home drome (Rockcliffe - CYRO) and do one where I cycle it through one whole cycle on liftoff before leaving it up - just to see what they say.

[Hank]

I still have the old, fast gear motor, being too cheap to "upgrade" to the slower motor just yet. That's just how us Cheap B@st@rds are sometimes. But I get occasional comments about how soon, and how quickly, the gear goes up when I'm leaving. It is as soon as I can tell I'm climbing, because there are nice, tall trees just ahead, and 3000' give no opportunity to land on the remaining runway. Give me altitude, and give it to me right now. YMMV, of course.

[DaV8or]

I have the old 20:1 electric gear too. It does snap up and down pretty quick. At annual, I think I'm going to go to the 40:1 gear set to save the very expensive motor.

[rbridges]

Quote: Hank

 Wow! Your '65 model is labeled in KNOTS? My '70 model is in MPH on the ASI, and all over the Owner's Manual. I have to wonder how that happened??? But then again, you have an E and I fly a C . . .

[lahso]

Curious - why isn't the airspeed needle sitting at zero? I had a similar situation with mine, and ended up having to replace it.

[kortopates]

Definetly a replaced AS instrument, and not really the correct model. You have an AS intended for faster airplane since both your yellow range and redline should be above the TAS wheel - not within it.  But the regs only say what markings are required (e.g., Vso, flap range, normal range etc) and that they be conspicuously marked so as to be clear and obvious and that is why the proper AS is designed to have the yellow arc and redine above the TAS computer wheel - not in it.

But not a big deal if you're happy, but it would drive me nuts looking at it; especially if my cruise speeds fell below the TAS wheel at altitude which I imagine may be possible since half of the TAS wheel is in the yellow arc - a place I never visit. YMMV. But as long as your satisfied, don't let me convince you otherwise.