The evils of the Touch and Go

[bob865]

I'm not yet a Mooney owner, but trying to learn what I can while I go through the buying process.  I have pretty much decided a Mooney is the plane for my mission.  I've been reading the forums to learn what I can and I keep seeing references to touch and go's being the equivalent of jumping off a bridge without a parachute in a Mooney.  I did a search to try to find a thread before that would answer it, but didn't see one (If I missed it, I apologize).  So is a touch and go really a death sentence to the pilot and plane? 

[jetdriven]

To me it's simple. It's a critical phase of flight and when you start throwing switches and levers, muscle memory takes over and you can put the gear up, or you can lose control of the airplane. Both are hazards and both are mitigated by bringing it to a stop clear of the runway, and then doing the after landing items. Several members on this board have done it. You own it now, and it costs about 12$ an hour to taxi the thing, or about 75c to taxi it back and take off again. 

[ArtVandelay]

I used partial flaps (only requires full throttle, every thing else is set), or long runways where you have plenty of time. Most of the time I'm with a CFI as well. They do have speed/squat switches that is suppose to prevent accidental gear up when on the ground, definitely an annual item.

[Oldguy]

During my transition training, we did a few T&Gs, but the main thing it did was make me very attentive to what my hands were doing and not much else. Did not think it was helpful at that time in my Mooney experience. Since then, I have attended a MAPA Safety Foundation PPP where they discourage them. I like Byron's description of the choices.

One thing I will say, is when you get your Mooney, if you are already IR, get a Mooney instructor to go with you to practice some missed approaches/go-arounds. Our planes can torque fairly quickly, and I believe several accidents have occurred during those maneuvers. If you will get your IR in your Mooney, you have made a great choice of platforms, but, still, be aware of the roll forces when you throttle up on a missed approach. One legged squats are good training. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Bad weather - no problem!

Stall spin - no problem!

Scud running - no problem!

Touch N Go = DEATH!

[salty]

I can see an argument against touch and goes if the retract switch is close to the flaps, or on short runways. But in my johnson bar C, I see absolutely no harm in them if theres 4000+ feet of runway.

[jkhirsch]

I'm not currently aware of a situation that would cause me to execute a touch and go. It seems completely frivolous.

Edited September 18, 2017 by jkhirsch

[MyNameIsNobody]

Will not be sucked in....DO NOT REPLY...Nothing to see in this old movie...

 

There, better...

[jkhirsch]

1 minute ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Will not be sucked in....DO NOT REPLY...Nothing to see in this old movie...

I tried so hard not to respond.

[midlifeflyer]

FWIW, my philosophy, regardless of make/model/retract/fixed gear has been simple. I don't think of a  touch and go as a flight maneuver. It is a timesaver in which you perform a landing of your choice, reconfigure the airplane during the rollout  for a takeoff of your choice, and perform the takeoff. It allows one to practice multiple takeoffs and landings in less time than a stop and go or a full stop/taxi back. That's about it. 

In a retract, there is an additional risk factor - potential damage to the aircraft from an inadvertent gear retraction. It happens. The incidents exist even with two pilots on board, one of which is a CFI giving training (I actually know of one in which that happened).

How large a risk factor? I don't know. Is it substantial enough to affect your decision? Every activity we do, especially in aviation, has risk and every additional risk factor increases it. But your risk tolerance is different than mine, so only you can make the risk v benefit decision. Mine is, the risk of me making a mistake is tiny. But I don't get enough benefit from a touch & go to make even that small risk worthwhile. YRMV.

[midlifeflyer]

Just now, jkhirsch said:

I tried so hard not to respond.

Mine's a copy and paste

[Brian Scranton]

They have no real place in aviation, honestly. Nothing, except for a balked landing/go around, comes close to the steps you take in a touch and go. 

In a Mooney, or any complex aircraft, and as taught by the airlines...you don't touch a thing (except maybe flaps on a gusty day) until you are off the runway. And for take off, there is a checklist that requires a number of things, such as trim, flaps, instruments, flight controls, boost pump, etc...all things that are super important to get muscle memory and that would not happen if you were rushing to get it all done on the rollout of a touch n go. 

Take the extra 3 minutes, get off the runway, clean up the plane and taxi back to the threshold. Perform your pre take off checklist. Take off. Land. Repeat. IMO. 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

We live in a free country. We are free to make our own choices on just about everything. Nobody is forcing anybody to do touch and gos.

I have no animosity for people who do touch and gos or for people who don't want to do them.

It just seems a bit strange to me. Sense the first day I had my hands on the controls of an airplane in '78 I thought that touch and gos were a normal part of flight training and didn't consider them to be a hazard until I got here.

[N201MKTurbo]

I remember a day back in the late 80s I was sitting in the café next to Flower Aviation in Pueblo CO. and watched a United (I think) 737 do 5 touch and gos.

 

Speaking of Flower Aviation....

In the early 80' when you landed at Flower, a large breasted woman in a skimpy outfit and high heals would bring out a red carpet and give you a sloppy kiss on the lips.

 

Oh how aviation has changed....

Edited September 15, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[Bob - S50]

I've only done one T&G in the Mooney and I did it no flaps.

I agree with TJ though, if I were going to do T&G's I would do them with either no flaps or half flaps.  Of those, I would prefer half flaps.  My only objection to T&G's is if I need to reset the flaps.  On my J, there is no detent for half flaps.  I can using timing, but to make sure I have the flap setting I want for takeoff I have to look at the indicator and adjust them.  That's not something I want to do while I'm rolling down the runway at 50 knots.  Also, if I'm doing T&G's to practice landings and takeoffs, I want the muscle memory of retracting the flaps on takeoff.

For half flap landings I just add 5 knots to my base and final speeds.

[Ftlausa]

OMG, not this thread again!!!!  I have no problem with T&Gs, but it is personal preference.  Knowing how the plane reacts on a go around, however, should be required training -- particularly in the long bodies.   The pitch up on go around can be significant.  

[midlifeflyer]

23 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Speaking of Flower Aviation....

In the early 80' when you landed at Flower, a large breasted woman in a skimpy outfit and high heals would bring out a red carpet and give you a sloppy kiss on the lips.

True well into the 21st Century. I left the area in 2012, but I suspected they were still doing it until the original Flower closed in 2014.

[Bob - S50]

8 minutes ago, Ftlausa said:

OMG, not this thread again!!!!  I have no problem with T&Gs, but it is personal preference.  Knowing how the plane reacts on a go around, however, should be required training -- particularly in the long bodies.   The pitch up on go around can be significant.  

And that's why I've started using half flaps on my instrument approaches instead of full flaps.  Much less trim change if I have to go missed.  If I break out it still gives me plenty of time to select full flaps and trim before landing.

[midlifeflyer]

9 minutes ago, Ftlausa said:

OMG, not this thread again!!!!  I have no problem with T&Gs, but it is personal preference.  Knowing how the plane reacts on a go around, however, should be required training -- particularly in the long bodies.   The pitch up on go around can be significant.  

I've never seen anyone suggest go-arounds should not be practiced.

[salty]

Maybe there's a tie between mooney drivers avoiding touch and goes and all the stories about how hard they are to land?

[bob865]

45 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I don't think of a  touch and go as a flight maneuver. 

That makes perfect sense to me.  And @jetdriven mentioned that if you are looking at it as a cost savings, it's less than $1 to just taxi back and go again.

[bob865]

48 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Mine's a copy and paste

I've seen the stories in dozens of posts but no summarized explanation.  It just seems like tribal knowledge.  Thought I would ask and see.

[midlifeflyer]

Just now, bob865 said:

I've seen the stories in dozens of posts but no summarized explanation.  It just seems like tribal knowledge.  Thought I would ask and see.

It's a copy and paste from earlier posts I wrote . If you are  asking whether I personally know of a inadvertent touch & go gear-up during instruction, as opposed to having heard about it from someone else, yes, I do.

[ArtVandelay]

I'm not currently aware of a situation that would cause me to execute a touch and go. It's seems completely frivolous.

1. They have a lot in common with a general go around, just at lower altitude.
2. Runway is unexpected slippery.
3. Wind has changed to a tail wind.
4. animal(s) have run onto the runway.
5. Arm men in trucks are speeding towards the runway, you realize you have landed in the middle of drug trade.
6. Earthquake has caused a fissure to open up.
7. You realize the runway is not wet, but flooded (possible here in Florida)
....

[Hank]

I didn't touch and go during transition training, but my airline pilot CFII had me do many during instrument training. It's no big deal . . .

My limit is minimum 5000'. Land holding throttle to idle, reach out one finger and raise flaps (SOP). Check trim, it's often very close to Takeoff setting; lower hand to adjust as required, then back to throttle. 

Speed rarely drops as low as 45 mph. Eyes iut the window, steering wirh feet. Eyes glance inside only to check trim position. Never raise hand above throttle.

Many touch and goes behind me, probably many more in my future. 

The DPE, Colonel and Wing Commnader in Air National Guard, had me do two Touch and Goes on my Instrument check ride . . .

Mountains out of mole hills, guys. Mountains out of mole hills. Touch and go all you want, even if it's zero.