Possible Trade Up Opinions

[jax88]

Got my eye on trading up and looking at an aircraft I looked at last year before buying my F.  Any opinions from you experts would be greatly appreciated.  I'm living in San Antonio and trips are typically Houston, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Florida.  My future use likely will include using the aircraft to travel to and from "job sites" across the country.

Went through the logs of this aircraft last night.  Gear up (non-pavement) years ago - repairs done by Mooney factory and engine rebuilt by Mena.  Last annual at Dugosh that showed nothing major (new main tires, new batteries, light bulbs, the such).  Most oil changes in 25 hour intervals.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-MSE/1994-MOONEY-M20J-MSE/1187215.htm?

Thanks

[Cruiser]

1994 - MOONEY 201/205 M20J $152,165.06 (as configured) Trade-in value will be considerably less due to dealer marketing costs, margins and inventory expenses. Price assumes complete logs, no damage, and all inspections complied.

Model Base Retail Serial No. M20J $129,000.00 243321-3354     Airframe Total Time and Engine Time Since Major Overhaul: Note: Numbers in parenthesis are negative values. AFTT: 2150. Effect on valuation=($1,584.94) at $6.89/hour. SMOH Engine #1: 550. Effect on valuation=$6,750.00 at $15.00/hour.   Basic Equipment: DUAL DIGITAL NAVCOMS, 1000 SMOH, 7 P&I, 2-AX AP, GS, ADF, DME.   Additions/Modifications/Conversions: Item Retail Value   Other Typical Add-on Equipment (Installed): Category Item Retail Value Navcom GNS430 $5,000.00 Navcom GNS530 $10,000.00 Stormscope WX900 $3,000.00

Feb 22, 2011 Vref

No adjustments made for paint or interior.

[John Pleisse]

Dugosh maintenance makes that gear up easier to swallow. Paint is awesome. Once you start paying over $150k, a lot of other opportunities start coming into play. Heavy Iron Mooney's (Bravo, etc), Bonanza 36 series, nice well equipped low time B-55 Barons, early vinatge SR-22's. Just my .02 .

[LFOD]

I think that  is way overpriced.  Unless the GWI is important to you (don't know if that aircraft has it) what is the operational difference between a 1994 and 1984 that you could purchase for 50K less?  You are into 252 territory at that price and you get the added capability of turbo and possible FIKI retrofit. 

[fantom]

Quote: LFOD

I think that  is way overpriced.  Unless the GWI is important to you (don't know if that aircraft has it) what is the operational difference between a 1994 and 1984 that you could purchase for 50K less?  You are into 252 territory at that price and you get the added capability of turbo and possible FIKI retrofit. 

[John Pleisse]

Operationally, you are getting very little from an F to a late model J. The best value of the J's still resides in the 1978-1985 bracket. However, the creature comforts of a later model MSE are light years ahead of a mid 70's F and would intice me any day (articulating seats, baggage rear fold down, GWI, 24v electric, better engine intruments, ext battery outlet, 10-13 KIAS, newer compnents -gear motor-fuel selctor, just plane nicer).

If it is a buck-52 airplane, they need to take 11% off for the gear up (I don't care what anybody says) and then another $5-8k to show motivation................I'd do it for $128,000, maybe $131k for psychologial posturing, knowing Dugosh maintenance makes it easier to swallow. Would it go for that? Who know's, probably not. Would they spit on you over a low number? If you had cash or pre approval, they'd take you quite seriously. Times are still tough.

[KSMooniac]

I'd be looking at late-80's 252's for that price range and your trip profile.  You'll get many of the "niceties" of the MSE-J but in a more capable (and further depreciated) airframe.  I also think you'd get much more of a performance boost over your F for about the same investment...

[richardheitzman]

That's Doc Hermann's bird and it is in almost perfect condition. I do not agree with the 11% drop for a gear up. Mooney aircraft are by design easily repaired from gear up landings, mostly belly skins. If the aircraft is in a Mooney shop (such as Don Maxwell, or Dugosh) then to me there is no loss of value. I agree the price is above average though, BUT, you have your high aircraft, low aircraft and mid range. This aircraft, based upon what I have seen, is a almost perfect condition aircraft so you tell me how many "turn key" aircraft are out there? Remember you get what you pay for.

[fantom]

Good points, Richard. What are you flying these days? Have they ever started building fly-in condo's at the Boerne airport??

My '94 J is in as good shape as Doc Hemann's, with a little better avionics, but not as nice interior, and I sure wouldn't sell it for the price he's asking.

To the OP, a 252 (which wasn't available when I purchased my plane, new) is the way to go IMO.

[jax88]

fantom : that's the rub, I'm not sure if I'd be better off with a 252.  I don't have any experience with either, and not knowing what speeds, fuel burns, and maintenance costs to really expect for both models makes this a difficult process.

[fantom]

I know what you mean, and have pondered that question for 16+ years. From EVERYTHING I've seen, if you aren't very handy with a wrench, and can do some legal work on the engine yourself, you are MUCH better off with a non turbo.

The guy in the hanger next to me has had a 231 for almost 20 years, knows the plane like the back of his hand, maintains it very well, and yet it still spends more time with the cowling off than it does in the air.

The 231, 252, Encore, and even the Bravo are wonderful machines if someone close is doing the work on them, you can afford it, and/or you need the speed and altitude for business.

Keep shopping, prices aren't going up in our lifetime, and exactly the right Mooney will find you!

[Cruiser]

Randy,

There are two ways to do this analysis:

#1 - Wants & emotions

#2 - Technical needs & mission

If you are looking to buy based on #1....... get what you like.

If you are looking to buy based on #2....... let the numbers decide for you

[fantom]

Great advise, but trying to keep #1 from influencing #2, when it comes to aviation, is close to impossible IMHO.

[Mcstealth]

Randy. You already know that a J has marginally, but measurably better performance than your bird. I see no reason other than monetary keeping you from going turbo.

[fantom]

Quote: Mcstealth

....I see no reason other than monetary keeping you from going turbo.

[John Pleisse]

Richard. I agree with you, Jimmy Garrison and all who beleive a gear-up on a Mooney is no big deal, but the market doesn't. I would hope if you were considering a gear up airplane, you would drive a fair bargin of an 11% deduct.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: jax88

fantom : that's the rub, I'm not sure if I'd be better off with a 252.  I don't have any experience with either, and not knowing what speeds, fuel burns, and maintenance costs to really expect for both models makes this a difficult process.

[kortopates]

Regarding the gear up deduction. I am of the same mindset as Richard. If the plane had the typical belly landing with non-structural damage to the belly skins. a few fairing etc. and all damage was replaced with new parts by a skilled and reputable MSC and then had been through several annuals to allow time for any unexpected damage to appear and be taken care of then I am not getting why the plane should be discounted; especially for 11%. I am not seeing any need for stigma for a plane with new parts and a proven repair over time. I would see need  however if somewhat shoddy repairs were accomplished utilizing bondo and not replacing all visible signs of damage as that is an entirely different situation. However, since Randy reports the Mooney factory did the repairs I'd be very comfortable yet would still examine the logs and the a/c to be sure.

[Vref]

In metal aircraft gear up damage can be most of the time repaired so there is no difference with a NDH airframe...however...there are exceptions if the airframe skidded long on the concrete the panels are sheared and the tubular structure is damaged (Mooney frame)......Damaged aircraft need a closer inspections but should not be avoided...there are really nice once where often the equipment is much better as the owner went for an upgrade during the repair process...(my 0.2 euro;s on it..;-)

I bought a damaged airframe as a restoration project knowing that it was on grass when the nose gear collapsed...

[Vref]

Oeps double post...

[thinwing]

I agree, trying to buy an otherwise creme puff example for a 11% blanket reduction just due to a prior gearup isnt realistic...both buyers and sellers are pretty knowledable these days about what the market is.A msc handled repair decades back has minimal effect on value...especially if the bird in question has above average paint/interior/avionics/engine time..the big 4 I call them..kpc

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: JimR

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: fantom

 That's the only reason keeping me from a TBM-850

[jelswick]

I had a '63 M20C that had in '64 been totaled when the owner flew it into trees in the pattern (vfr on a non-vfr day).  I'd wager a lot of money that by the time I got through with it, it was one of the nicest early C's out there.  It was repaired right at that time and I had it go through service centers and my great local mechanic for a lot of money unfortunately, but it was in great shape.  The maintenance shop in Miamisburg, OH said it looked cleaner inside than Mooneys they'd seen only 10 yrs old.  Only point is I wouldn't get too worked up over prior damage history.  Make sure the repairs were done correctly and if so, you can get some very good deals on very good aircraft.  I personally feel better if the damage was over 10-20 yrs ago (more so a lot of hours) so that the repairs have proven themselves out, but that's just my personal preference if I were to buy one other than NDH again. 

[PTK]

Considering today's economic climate the asking price for this particular airplane is absurd!  It's an awsome deal ... for the seller!  This airplane would not even be a candidate on my list if I was a buyer, at any price!  Look, the airplane is a J. You can buy a perfectly capable well equipped mid 80's J for 40-50K LESS!!  Instead you are considering a damaged, yes I said damaged, J for 160K!  I respect Dugosh's opinion. My airplane had 14 consecutive annuals at Dugosh before I bought it. I regret, due to distance, I couldn't continue with Mr. Kramer. I'm taking it to a closer also very well respected MSC.  But not Dugosh nor anyone else can change the fact that it is a damaged airplane.  I don't care that it has been repaired or what anybody says. Especially I don't care what Garrison says.  Would you trust a used car salesperson? They tell you what you want to hear.   

I don't know what you see in this airplane that you would even consider it.  Maybe the sharp paintjob.  Personally I would leave emotions out of the equation and I would take my time and look at a lot of airplanes.  You don't have to have an overpriced damaged one!  When the right airplane comes along you will feel it!  

This is only my opinion and it's worth way more than what you paid for it!