I guess I'm greedy

[Dream to fly]

41 minutes ago, Yetti said:

First off.... Indicated Airspeed is not accurate.   You need a tablet and monitor via the Ground speed.   Second when I am going slow, I look for flaps being down or worse gear down.  I has happened a couple of times. Am I proud of it, not really.  Third after three years of flying, I am thinking my MP gauge is really off by about 5.   Try WoT and 2400 RPM

Agreed.  I know the plane has issues and I know the instruments are flaky.  I'm just getting tired and I know SOMETHING is wrong I just can't pin point it yet.  On the way back home my audio panel had an issue and I couldn't switch radios and then radio two which is a problem finally quit.  It is just a lot of stuff constantly breaking.  At some point I have to get ahead of the curve but I just don't see it.  If you were to run the engine and fly, it sounds and runs great.  Doesn't produce metal and from what I can tell 4 hrs of flight I lost 1/2 a quart mostly from an oil leak at the remote filter housing or the breather tube.  As a mechanic I want to just rip it apart and do what I do but I get into this dilemma of time Vs money and fighting a battle to only lose the war is not how I roll.   I'm going to put the engine monitor in and then go from there.  In the mean time I am getting it re-rigged and addressing the oil leaks.  If a J comes available and I can swing it I might just burn it and move on.

[Yetti]

Lycoming and Harleys are just marking their spot with all the oil they leak

[Dream to fly]

12 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Lycoming and Harleys are just marking their spot with all the oil they leak

Funny I own both and it drives me nuts.  I am always walking around with liquid dawn and a mop

[Bob - S50]

10 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

I need more power and speed.  I thought it was enough but nope climb rate was difficult and overall a 1.5 hour cruise set lean and running 24/24 I used almost 19 gallons.  The engine purrs and runs great just something is missing and I don't see it.  Any ideas?

I was at 7500 and the POH says 10.  It took forever to climb too.  I realize DA was 3800 and it was dry hot air at 89 - 92 in Fargo.  To me it reminds me of driving a carbureted Toyota vs a fuel injected Toyota.  The power is not there.  I feel like it needs something.  I did notice that at 8500 ft at cruise the best MP I could get was 21 maybe 22.  throttle and prop all the way in. 

First, at 8500' I would not expect to be able to get more than about 21.5" which is exactly what you got.  I'd say you are doing pretty well in that department.  Unless of course your MP gauge is off.

Second.  If your F is like my J (which I know it isn't but I don't have your POH), 24/24 would be a bit over 65% power.  If you were really LOP, I would expect about 9 GPH.  An hour and a half at 9 GPH is 13.5 gallons.  If you add a gallon for ground ops and another 2 for the climb, that's only 16.5 gallons total.  I suspect you were actually ROP.  The engine monitor you ordered will answer that question.

[Dream to fly]

3 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

First, at 8500' I would not expect to be able to get more than about 21.5" which is exactly what you got.  I'd say you are doing pretty well in that department.  Unless of course your MP gauge is off.

Second.  If your F is like my J (which I know it isn't but I don't have your POH), 24/24 would be a bit over 65% power.  If you were really LOP, I would expect about 9 GPH.  An hour and a half at 9 GPH is 13.5 gallons.  If you add a gallon for ground ops and another 2 for the climb, that's only 16.5 gallons total.  I suspect you were actually ROP.  The engine monitor you ordered will answer that question.

That maybe very possible and I agree with out the monitor I really am guessing.  It is just frustrating on a shoe string budget. I have no payments and I want to keep it that way but I want results yesterday or a week ago and that is probably my biggest issue. 

[Yetti]

OH and Ram air.  Did you open that up?   Oh and clean filter.

I have a BMW motorcycle.  Driving through Colorado one summer....   There were mostly two brands.  BMW and Harley.  Generally the Harley people were over on the side of the road working on them.  Did not see a BMW on the side of the road.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

First off.... Indicated Airspeed is not accurate. 

His indicated airspeed could be accurate.  In that case, he needs to calculate TAS.

 

19 gallons sounds like too much for a 1.5 hour flight...But I don't know the overall profile of your flight...

[Browncbr1]

something isn't right... I just flew my F a little over a 3 hour flight at 10k and total burn was 26 gallons, ram air open, WOT peak, 2500rpm, 145KTAS..   I took off hot and near gross for a 20 minute climb.. 19 gallons for 1.5 hour isn't right...   I burn right at about 8gph in cruise at peak.   if you are going by your FF transducer, it may need calibrating.  Did you verify burn by filling the tanks back up?

[Cyril Gibb]

5 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

That maybe very possible and I agree with out the monitor I really am guessing.  It is just frustrating on a shoe string budget. I have no payments and I want to keep it that way but I want results yesterday or a week ago and that is probably my biggest issue. 

If you don't have a monitor, what is the process you use to lean?  Lean to rough then enrich to smooth which would give you LOP?  Lean to max airspeed which would be best power?  Something else?  

[Tx_Aggie]

Aggie,
you need to update your profile to include your C...
Having the R in there may confuse somebody about the plane you are discussing. 
Cruising at 6.5 gph is just un Ovation like...
Add the C's picture too while you are in there!
Best regards,
-a-

Well I haven't thrown the towel in on the O yet, I flew it last weekend! How about I upload the photo of the C and keep the tail # of the O?!


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[RLCarter]

21 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

I need more power and speed.  I thought it was enough but nope climb rate was difficult and overall a 1.5 hour cruise set lean and running 24/24 I used almost 19 gallons.  The engine purrs and runs great just something is missing and I don't see it.  Any ideas?  

Looking at a POH for a 1969 M20F it shows at 7500msl, 2400rpm and 23”mp (highest the chart goes) fuel burn would be 10.6 gph, 10.6 gph x 1.5 hrs = 15.9 gallons, add 3 gal for taxi, run up and climb, 18.9 gal and the fuel burn looks correct

Next you say that 21~22”MP is the best you could get at 8500msl looking at the charts 23” at 7500 and 21” at 10,000, so those numbers match the book.

Looking at the pictures I see your indicated airspeed at 143, altitude is 6600. MP 23” and RPM is 2350, guessing at an outside temp of 16 *C based on 90*F on the ground, I come up with 160mph True which matches the book as well.

I would do a test flight and see what your actual climb rate is based on TIME and ALTITUDE and compare it to what the VSI shows before I go ripping motor parts off, while I was on that flight I would also set power to several different settings at 7500 and 5000 according to the book and see how actual & book compare.

 

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, Tx_Aggie said:

Well I haven't thrown the towel in on the O yet, I flew it last weekend! How about I upload the photo of the C and keep the tail # of the O?!


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There is room for both...

A few people list the different planes they use including some work planes...

Others list the previous plane they used to care for...

It is helpful to know your various aviation sides... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Dream to fly]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Joe,

I don't think your numbers are that far off, especially if flown excessively ROP.  Your new engine monitor will tell the tale, but so would just a fuel flow instrument if you are willing to commit to LOP operations where the real efficiencies lie.  

Please don't take this post as being critical, but without knowing your precise mixture settings ROP there is just no telling what your fuel consumption should have been.  Manifold pressure and RPM are only 2/3 of the equation for ROP operations. If you posted your mixture settings earlier in this thread I must have missed it. 

Jim

No offence taken.  I am just not sure what to think.  @RLCarter shows in his post that the numbers as taken by the pictures I took match the POH pretty close.  I just can't put my finger on this but the engine is off.  I just don't seem to have throttle response and MP is lethargic in change to throttle.  I need accurate gauges and the best way to keep my eyes on this is with a monitor.  It's ordered I just have to get it then have the time to put it in.  In the meantime I am getting the rigging redone and finding where it likes to piss oil from.  The other thing is in this dam state of ND the wind is always against me head on and that maybe some of the issue.  If that's the case I am ordering a JATO pack and strapping it to the belly. 

[Dream to fly]

7 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

If you don't have a monitor, what is the process you use to lean?  Lean to rough then enrich to smooth which would give you LOP?  Lean to max airspeed which would be best power?  Something else?  

I establish cruise then lean to rough and peak then rich till smooth

[RLCarter]

6 minutes ago, Dream to fly said:

The other thing is in this dam state of ND the wind is always against me head on and that maybe some of the issue.  If that's the case I am ordering a JATO pack and strapping it to the belly. 

Wind only effects GS not TAS,...... a headwind will actually help with rate of climb 

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, RLCarter said:

Wind only effects GS not TAS,...... a headwind will actually help with rate of climb 

I think you meant angle of climb.  It won't help with rate.

[chrixxer]

Could your VSI simply be off? Compared to the AHRS / GPS "glass" I get with ForeFlight + Stratus 2, my VSI reads roughly half rate descending (250 indicated is actually 500fpm descent) and double ascending (1500fpm indicated is really 750). (I haven't addressed it yet because the VSI is the only 2.25 inch gauge in the scattershot cluster, and will be replaced with a 3.125 inch standard unit when I completely redo the panel. It's also not a required instrument.)

[TTaylor]

On 7/23/2017 at 10:10 PM, Dream to fly said:

Another question how long does it take for you guys who fly non turbo to get to 10K or 12K.  My F would never make it.

I made some notes yesterday.  I was climbing out of O27 (Oakdale, CA) at full gross weight. Climb from 240 ft msl to 12,500 was about 40 minutes. I climb at 105 mph indicated for better cooling and visability. The CHT's were all low throughout the climb. I reached 12,500 near TVL (South Lake Tahoe).  I leaned to about 125 rop on the climb and had fuel flows of 15 gph to about 12 gph near 12,000 feet. After the climb I leaned to 9 gph.   At 1:02 I had burned 12.6 gallons, and at 1:30 had burned a total of 16.9 gallons.   

Your numbers are not that far off, and without a fuel flow system it would be hard to tell what is really going on.  Hot days will make most NA 360's feel anemic.  I was delayed on departure last week and had to depart at 3:00 pm from Logan with a density altitude of 8 or 9k, very slow climb out.

Tim

Edited July 26, 2017 by TTaylor

[Dream to fly]

Took my plane down yesterday for re-rigging and in flight I loose my Artificial Horizon and I land with oil every where again.  Vac pump has failed, cylinder 2 base o-ring  is leaking, and the new oil filter relocation mount decided to fail and split where the 90 degree elbow goes in.   While it is down I am also going to smoke the intake and check for leaks.  I am thinking I might be running lean and it is causing me to run rich to compensate for leaks.  After this repair I hope to get the monitor in and then figure out if it is me or the plane.  I'd like to believe its the plane but my wife is putting up a good argument it is me.

[Yetti]

So flying south with some High density afternoon heat at 4500 AGL I was only doing 120 Knots.  So too slow for a mooney.  All configured and leaned out.   To fix it I added throttle.   Something you could check.

Shooting the gap on some rain

[Shiny moose]

I have a 67 F, we could compare some notes. I have few upgrades like a 201 windshield and gap seals I have a JPI fuel flow FS450 but no fancy engine monitor. I climb out at 105KIAS WOT and 2700, see 500FPM if I'm real heavy, if I'm alone and light on fuel 800 + in the climb I dont lean until above 5K, use power setting from POH for cruise. I routinely see 152-155 KTS true at altitude ( Sunday at 9k DA 112K true was 155 ) and burning 10.2 if memory is correct



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[steingar]

Took me a half hour to climb my C out of Oshkosh, full of fuel and camping scut to 12K at 120 mph indicated.  3.5 hour trip there burned 30 gallons, and I'll bet the trip back did likewise, if not less.  Something to be said for going 160 mph on 55% power.

Good luck to the OP, have no idea what's going on.  Hope it gets fixed.  Only posted up 'cause you asked.

[Brian Scranton]

M20F, with RAYJAY and at 24/24 at 13-15K I never see more than 145KTAS, 12gph. 

I climb at 105mph and see 300-400fpm, but I am usually starting from high alt--DA's near 10,000 from takeoff. My climb burn at 2700rpm and 26MP is 16gph. 

I took off from Jackson, WY on Sunday at max gross, 9000 DA, and literally struggled to make 200fpm for a while. 30 min climb to 14K. 

High. Heavy. Hot. 

[Stephen]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:23 PM, Browncbr1 said:

something isn't right... I just flew my F a little over a 3 hour flight at 10k and total burn was 26 gallons, ram air open, WOT peak, 2500rpm, 145KTAS..   I took off hot and near gross for a 20 minute climb.. 19 gallons for 1.5 hour isn't right...   I burn right at about 8gph in cruise at peak.   if you are going by your FF transducer, it may need calibrating.  Did you verify burn by filling the tanks back up?

 

I agree, I get about the same numbers on my F as Brown.