First long distance flight for me!

[KLRDMD]

Just now, rbridges said:

I agree, but gusts don't let you know what the minimum energy is.  If you're landing during the 28 gust phase, and then it drops 8 knots to 20, you could stall if you're not carrying a little extra speed.  I'm pretty conservative with my limits.  In this case, I would make sure I'm at a long runway so the extra speed wouldn't cause an overrun.  

Virtually every Mooney pilot I have done recurrent training for flies short final *at least* 5 knots too fast. My guess is, most other Mooney specific instructors see the same thing. Their gust factor is already factored in :-(

[ragedracer1977]

4 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Why carry extra speed if the wind is right down the runway ?

Because that's what I was taught, that's how the FAA says to do it, and it works. I'm not talking I was doing 100mph on short final, just a few extra mph.  I know how to land in heavy winds, I never force the plane down. If my approach is bad or the runway is short and I'm floating, I go around. 

I fly the numbers, it works.  

[donkaye]

In a steady headwind absolutely no reason to add any speed on approach.  As Ken said, less energy on touchdown means less potential problems.

Regarding steady crosswinds, that is another story.  I personally don't want any more crab on final than about 15°.  That sometimes means more speed is required.  One of the worst crosswind situations I have encountered was coming into KSJC a number of years ago as a strong cold front was passing through.  It was pretty close to a 90° crosswind at 35 knots.  I had to run final at 105 knots with no flaps.  I touched down at that speed and gradually reduced power while adding right aileron.  With that speed on touchdown, then continually slowing and holding the runway with aileron, had I come to a point where the plane started to drift, I could immediately add power and go around.  Luckily that wasn't necessary.  The runway is at sea level and at the time 4,500 feet long.  That was adequate.  

This isn't to say I recommend everyone land at 100 knots in 35 knot crosswind.  You need to fly the plane onto the runway to prevent bouncing.  So a lot of practice is in order.

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Because that's what I was taught, that's how the FAA says to do it, and it works. I'm not talking I was doing 100mph on short final, just a few extra mph.  I know how to land in heavy winds, I never force the plane down. If my approach is bad or the runway is short and I'm floating, I go around. 

I fly the numbers, it works.  

Good answer........low and slow will bite you on the ass when the headwind goes away

[Yetti]

Glad you had a fun flight.  Sorry for the experts that weren't there for the landing.  I am sure it was a fun time with a good landing.

[TTaylor]

10 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Why carry extra speed if the wind is right down the runway ?

Because you never know if you are going to go through a wind shear near the ground.  We carry extra speed for both the wind speed and the gusts.   If you are 20 feet off the ground and the wind goes from 20 to 0 at 75 mph you are now flying (well likely not flying) at 55 mph.  I would rather get into ground effect and then let the plane slow down and settle on than stall from 20 feet.

[KLRDMD]

9 hours ago, TTaylor said:

Because you never know if you are going to go through a wind shear near the ground.  We carry extra speed for both the wind speed and the gusts. 

And this, ladies and gentlemen is why our Mooney insurance rates are higher than they need to be. The most common Mooney accident is in the landing phase and the most common reason is too great an airspeed.

[ragedracer1977]

3 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

And this, ladies and gentlemen is why our Mooney insurance rates are higher than they need to be. The most common Mooney accident is in the landing phase and the most common reason is too great an airspeed.

Just to clarify, you're advocating flying a 'normal' IAS regardless of the winds?

[carusoam]

I was challenged by how KLR wrote what he did... his focus was on one point, and loosely covered Another at the same time...

Common speed adjustments...

1) windspeed.  To account for changes while getting close to the ground.

2) gust speed. To account for the gust being there or not.

3) cross wind. To account for the head wind component.

4) Gross weight. To account for the aerodynamics of the plane.

5) Flaps. To account for the amount of flaps being used.

6)....

It is Best to follow good logic adding the appropriate adjustments, knowing that when too many things get added out of 'safety' it is very possible to be coming in too fast.

Too fast, leads to long float. Long float leads to impatience. Impatience leads to forcing the plane on the ground.  Forcing the plane cause the bounce. Bounces cause additional bounces. The third bounce is a prop strike...

Go around on the first bounce...

Don Kaye has covered the adjustments on his web site.  They are adds of 5kts or 10kts for each item. If you add up all the possibilities you will be coming in quickly.  If they are all needed, a long runway is going to be needed to match.

picture coming in heavy with a variable cross wind to a short runway... being on speed and attentive to any changes in the winds is going to be an important skill to have developed.  Maximum multitasking skills. One eye on the windsock, Another on the ASI and a third eye looking down the runway, a fourth looking out the side window at the ground...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[ragedracer1977]

At KSSF I carried a few extra mph.  I touched down and exited the runway at the first exit, before the fixed distance markers. I think I did just fine.

Unless someone can give me a better reason than "some pilots fly too fast", I'm going to continue doing it the way I've been taught, and every other publication says.  Saying 'no matter the winds, fly 70mph on short final" just makes no sense to me

[gsxrpilot]

11 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Too fast, leads to long float. Long float leads to impatience. Impatience leads to forcing the plane on the ground.  Forcing the plane cause the bounce. Bounces cause additional bounces. The third bounce is a prop strike...

The problem is not speed on approach, the problem is trying to force a plane to land that is not ready to land. Neither of these Bravo's were any worse off after landing at 90 mph. I've done the same many times in a C and in a K. No issues with either.

 

[carusoam]

Paul,

a good long float can run out of runway with a really smooth landing... ending up in the trap, breaking the REILs..

same challenge can lead to a late go around and end in the trees....

impatience is usually because the runway is getting shorter... then the bouncing begins...

Shades of bad judgements with various outcomes...

I'm glad we get to discuss these.  Somebody is going to benefit from all the hidden challenges...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

There are some people who fly the whole pattern at full flaps and slow

There are some people that are at the top of gear speed abeam the numbers

There are some people that worry about an engine going out in the pattern

There are some people who fly short final at 70 mph

There are some people who can fly the plane on at 90 mph

There are some people who know that if you pull up just a bit between the fence and runway you can get rid of a bunch of energy

There are some people that think a stabilized approach is 70 mph all the way down final

There are some people that need numbers to land a plane

There are some people that can fly a plane

There are some people that don't believe in seat of your pants flying

There are some people that believe that seat of the pants flyers are more able to adapt when abnormal conditions are presented

[gsxrpilot]

@carusoam and @Yetti well said both of you.

 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Just to clarify, you're advocating flying a 'normal' IAS regardless of the winds?

In many cases, yes, the math actually works out that way. Almost everyone has already added in an extra five knots airspeed for landing so adding any more is not necessary and inappropriate.

In a C/E model, you should be at 68 kts (78 MPH) and you should subtract 5 MPH if 300 lb below gross weight.

In a F/J model, you should be at 72 kts  and you should subtract 5 kts if 300 lb below gross weight.

In a K model , you should be at 75 kts  and you should subtract 5 kts if 300 lb below gross weight.

In an M model, you should be at 80 kts  and you should subtract 5 kts if 300 lb below gross weight.

If you actually fly the above speeds with the appropriate reductions based on landing weight, then yes, by all means, add a gust factor. Very few Mooney pilots I know do the calculations and make the airspeed reductions so they've already built in the extra 5 or even 10 knots so adding even more is not necessary.  

Even if you think you were were at the appropriate speed of 68 kts (78 MPH) when landing your "C" model, you flew almost four hours so you probably were 250-300 pounds below gross for the landing which means should have reduced your speed by 4-5 knots. Adding in your 4 kt gust factor puts you right back at the original landing speed of 68 kts. See how that works ???

*** The above data all comes from Don Kaye @donkaye, I would like to acknowledge his contribution. ***

[211º]

Holy cow.  This thread has more drift than a Mooney holding 15 extra kts over the numbers.

Congrats to the OP - such an excellent way to use your new time machine.

[peevee]

19 minutes ago, 211º said:

Holy cow.  This thread has more drift than a Mooney holding 15 extra kts over the numbers.

Congrats to the OP - such an excellent way to use your new time machine.

only if you hold 15kias over with the speed brakes out while forward slipping and planning a touch and go.

[flyboy0681]

On 7/1/2017 at 10:11 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

Wife, kids, and I flew from Deer Valley to Stinson field.  We stopped in Pecos, TX.  She ran beautifully.  8.3-8.5 gph, 20" 2500rpm 9500'.  TAS about 150mph average.  30.9 gallons from KDVT-KPEQ, 3:48 flight time.  I haven't fueled in San Antonio yet to see exactly what I used KPEQ-KSSF.  

 

Now you know the value of a Mooney.

FWIW, you may want to change your avatar, you are no longer flying brand C but a serious aircraft.

[ragedracer1977]

47 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Now you know the value of a Mooney.

FWIW, you may want to change your avatar, you are no longer flying brand C but a serious aircraft.

Ha! I didn't even realize that!

[donkaye]

7 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

In many cases, yes, the math actually works out that way. Almost everyone has already added in an extra five knots airspeed for landing so adding any more is not necessary and inappropriate.

In a C/E model, you should be at 68 kts (78 MPH) and you should subtract 5 MPH if 300 lb below gross weight.

In a F/J model, you should be at 72 kts  and you should subtract 5 kts if 300 lb below gross weight.

In a K model , you should be at 75 kts  and you should subtract 5 kts if 300 lb below gross weight.

In an M model, you should be at 80 kts  and you should subtract 5 kts if 300 lb below gross weight.

If you actually fly the above speeds with the appropriate reductions based on landing weight, then yes, by all means, add a gust factor. Very few Mooney pilots I know do the calculations and make the airspeed reductions so they've already built in the extra 5 or even 10 knots so adding even more is not necessary.  

Even if you think you were were at the appropriate speed of 68 kts (78 MPH) when landing your "C" model, you flew almost four hours so you probably were 250-300 pounds below gross for the landing which means should have reduced your speed by 4-5 knots. Adding in your 4 kt gust factor puts you right back at the original landing speed of 68 kts. See how that works ???

*** The above data all comes from Don Kaye @donkaye, I would like to acknowledge his contribution. ***

Those principles came from my mentor instructor, Bob Goldin, an aeronautical engineer,  who created an eleven page handout that he use to give out at the Mooney PPP and which I modified and put on my website.  Those were the good old days at the Mooney PPPs where creativity flourished.

Before I installed my AOA, I DID do the calculations necessary to arrive at the appropriate airspeed on final.  I could do it in a couple of seconds knowing the zero fuel weight of the plane, adding back in the remaining fuel to get the airplane's landing weight, and then making the adjustments called for on page 11 of the handout. (On my website click on Mooney Homecoming 2016 Handout and download it.  Open the PDF, click on Bookmarks, and then click on Precision Flying with Don Kaye, then scroll to Page 11 for all the details)

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Those principles came from my mentor instructor, Bob Goldin, an aeronautical engineer,  who created an eleven page handout that he use to give out at the Mooney PPP and which I modified and put on my website.  Those were the good old days at the Mooney PPPs where creativity flourished.

Before I installed my AOA, I DID did do the calculations necessary to arrive at the appropriate airspeed on final.  I could do it in a couple of seconds knowing the zero fuel with of the plane, adding back in the remaining fuel to get the airplane's landing weight, and then making the adjustments called for on page 11 of the handout. (On my website click on Mooney Homecoming 2016 Handout and download it.  Open the PDF, click on Bookmarks, and then click on Precision Flying with Don Kaye, then scroll to Page 11 for all the details)

Thank you Don, your web page is very helpful. 

[donkaye]

36 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Thank you Don, your web page is very helpful. 

I should mention that Page 8 of the Precision Flying Handout is the most important page you will ever read on the mechanics of aircraft control.  When I completely understood that page I knew I had the edge over any instructor out there who did not teach that method of aircraft control, and to this day, after giving nearly 6,000 hours of flight instruction, that still holds true.  If you understand that page, you can make perfect landings every time.

[Hank]

Thanks, Don. That will require more reading power than I have avaliable right now. May keep a printout of parts of it in the plane.

For me electric C, I use 75 mph on short final as my base speed, less 5 mph per 300 lb under gross. It works very well for me, and I've been based 9 years at either 3000' obstructed or 3200' fields. Picked that tip up from your writings years ago, tried it out and recommend it.

[ragedracer1977]

My wife and I found ourselves in New Orleans today! Flew into KNEW (lakefront).  MSY controllers were awesome and very helpful!

[RLCarter]

51 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

My wife and I found ourselves in New Orleans today! Flew into KNEW (lakefront).  MSY controllers were awesome and very helpful!

The freedom of flight is awesome, safe travels.