Touch screens are they good

[Dream to fly]

I am looking at different nav/com packages and a lot of the new platforms are touch screen are there any problems with them?  I have the 660 and it is a PITA to use.  I have to hold my fingers just right to select letters and menus.  I like buttons and knobs but it seems to be a thing of the past.

[Bryan]

I have a newly installed GTN 750 and it is a breeze to use.  I also have a backup 430 in there and I can just about program any route with procedures in the 750 in the time it takes to get a DirectTo airport into the 430.  I was skeptical at first about being able to touch the right keys especially on the soft-keyboard or number pad but anchoring my hands on one side for the other make the touchscreen very usable in turbulence.  Pinch to zoom and panning is nearly as good as using an iPad.

 

[Marauder]

I am looking at different nav/com packages and a lot of the new platforms are touch screen are there any problems with them?  I have the 660 and it is a PITA to use.  I have to hold my fingers just right to select letters and menus.  I like buttons and knobs but it seems to be a thing of the past.

If you are talking about the 650, the knobs still can be used to dial in frequencies and identifiers. Unless the turbulence is really bad, I am able to use the touchscreen most of the time but do occasionally resort to using the knobs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Rustler]

Joe--

In the Avidyne IFD540 I have in the 231, some inputs can be made both by touching the screen and by using a knob. Some, but not all. I have had no problems with the touch screen, but in bumpy conditions, it can be a challenge.

[gsxrpilot]

I have the Avidyne IFD540 as well. I think it provides the most options. 

1. There is a touch screen and everything can be done there.
2. There are knobs that can be used for almost everything.
3. A bluetooth keyboard is provided that you can use for everything if you'd rather type on real keys.
4. The IFD100 app is included as well which allows you to run everything on the IFD540 from a mirror image on your iPad in your lap.

Something for everyone...

[Vance Harral]

One of the trade-offs to consider is long-term reliability.  Every nav/com gizmo I've ever used with knobs and hardkeys seems to eventually flake out: KX-170, KX-155, Garmin 430, Garmin 530.  I've used numerous copies of these radios, and after a while the knobs and buttons slip or don't register.  The 430 on one of the local flight school airplanes has one of the hard keys held in with tape.  A buddy with a 530 is starting to have trouble with all the hard keys on it.  The 50/25 KHz pull knob on our KX-155 has been flaky for a while, etc.

Touch screens have failure modes too, of course, but my own personal experience with phones and GTN devices suggests they hold up better to long-term use.  I don't have any scientific data, just my opinion.

[gsxrpilot]

Between my iPad running the IFD100 app and the bluetooth keyboard, I might never actually have to touch the brand new IFD540 in my panel. 

[jetdriven]

I do like the idea that the IFD have real physical buttons around the edge. In heavy moderate to greater turbulence the touch screens aren't so useful 

[Vance Harral]

56 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I do like the idea that the IFD have real physical buttons around the edge. In heavy moderate to greater turbulence the touch screens aren't so useful 

Having flown hundreds of hours with both hard knobs/dials and touchscreens, I continue to be mystified by this criticism that touchscreens are "difficult" in turbulence.  I find both systems easy to use in smooth air, and slightly more difficult to use in turbulent air.  I'd wager people that have significantly more trouble with a touchscreen in turbulence aren't using the bezel to support their hand when tapping, maybe trying to hover their whole arm up over the panel.  Some touch screen devices have better supporting edges than others.  The bezel on the GTN series is specifically designed for this.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Vance Harral

[Hank]

4 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

One of the trade-offs to consider is long-term reliability.

Touch screens have failure modes too, of course, but my own personal experience with phones and GTN devices suggests they hold up better to long-term use.  I don't have any scientific data, just my opinion.

How do you define "long term"? I've yet to keep a phone or tablet more than three years. The 430W was put in my plane by the previous owner; I've been using it 10 years this month. Sometimes the buttons don't like to work, just have to press them 20, 30 or 40 times each on the ground to bring them back to working condition. For buttons falling off, what shape do you think the touch screen on a flight school rental would be in after a half dozen years of student abuse, long fingernails, poking with pens, etc.? 

[toto]

I have a fair amount of experience with both the GNS- and GTN-series navigators. I find the GTN touchscreen harder to use in turbulence, but I think that Garmin has made reasonable tradeoffs. Having fewer physical buttons allows for a much larger screen, and as mentioned above there are still a handful of inputs for the most frequent functions (home, direct-to, frequency knob). And today there's also the option of voice control via the GMA-350 if you're so inclined.

[flight2000]

All I have to say is protect your radios that have any type of bezel/knob from loose iPads in the cockpit.  Had a buddy that was cruising along in smooth air and hit a spot of CAT and the iPad went up off the co-pilots seat and karate chopped the entire lower knob off his 430W.  That was an expensive trip to the shop...  

I've had no issues with the touch screens in flight on my GTN750, but it can be a little frustrating if the turbulence goes on long enough and you're making a lot of changes.  Just takes a little patience and a steady hold on the lower support ledge that is built into the unit. 

Cheers,

Brian

[Vance Harral]

29 minutes ago, Hank said:

How do you define "long term"? I've yet to keep a phone or tablet more than three years. The 430W was put in my plane by the previous owner; I've been using it 10 years this month. Sometimes the buttons don't like to work, just have to press them 20, 30 or 40 times each on the ground to bring them back to working condition. For buttons falling off, what shape do you think the touch screen on a flight school rental would be in after a half dozen years of student abuse, long fingernails, poking with pens, etc.? 

I tend to hang on to my gizmos a little longer.  My iPad is about 5 years old, and my phone was even a little older than that, until I swapped it out this year for my son's hand-me-down iPhone 6.  Never seen a touchscreen failure.  Heck, even phones that are abused to the point of cracking the display glass still seem to work fine (other than the glass shards in your finger).  I've seen plenty of people just plaster a screen protector over the broken glass and keep on truckin'.  My son lived with this for about 6 months until we bought a replacement digitizer/display unit for his phone.

That said, I think hours of use has as much impact as calender time... I'm pretty sure in three years, the average phone sees a lot more use/abuse - including exposure to the elements - than a panel mount navigator in an airplane.  Again, I don't have any scientific data, but my anecdotal observations sure suggest the touch screens are more robust.  Your experience with your 430 buttons is common.  Sure, you can get them to work again for a while by exercising the buttons, but it's not going to get any better.  The real, no apologies fix is to send it back to Garmin for their $1000 flat repair rate.

I agree flight school airplanes see more use/abuse, but GNS button failures aren't specific to unloved/high use airplanes.  My buddy with the flaky 530W takes as good care of his airplane as anyone.  Low time, always hangared, etc.  I'm sure you take good care of yours too.  It's not just a flight school problem.  Here are a collection of threads I found in just a 60 second search, from people with 430 button problems, none of which involve flight school airplanes:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=94227

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=113739

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/can-you-clean-430-buttons.47091/

[toto]

what shape do you think the touch screen on a flight school rental would be in after a half dozen years of student abuse, long fingernails, poking with pens, etc.? 

I'm not sure how well they work, but you can buy screen protectors for panel-mount radios that theoretically protect against both fingernails and glare. Could be cheap insurance for an expensive toy.

[Vance Harral]

Glass on touch screens isn't fragile or scratch prone, and those "screen protectors" are almost always unnecessary.  It's not impossible to scratch it, but you're certainly not going to do it with the casual application of a fingernail or plastic pen cap.  For reference, your fingernails are about 2.5 on the Mohs' scale.  A copper penny is 3, soft steel is about 5.  Window pane glass is about 6, and things like the Corning Gorilla Glass found on most modern touch screens are nearly 7.  As a practical example, I've carried keys and/or change in the same pocket as my phone on occasion, with no damage to the display.

To be fair, some displays have an anti glare coating on top of the glass that can get scratched, and deteriorate over time.  My Garmin 396 portable had this problem.  I fixed it by taking rubbing compound to the screen to polish off the coating, then putting an anti-glare "screen protector" over the display.  The purpose of that was just to restore the anti-glare properties, not to "protect" the display glass itself.  To my knowledge, no panel-mount GPS/NAV/COM has this kind of anti-glare coating, so not a concern.

I also think if we're going to discuss people using things other than their finger tips to point at or actuate controls, it's fair to argue the plastic or rubber face of a hard key is more fragile than touch screen glass.

None of this is meant to be argumentative toward pilots who just simply like knobs and hard keys.  Personal preference is just that, personal.  But I do think there is a long-term reliability component to consider.  Hopefully this discussion is helpful to the OP.

[toto]

Corning Gorilla Glass found on most modern touch screens are nearly 7. 

Speaking only as a user of these products, Garmin touch screens have always felt *much* more fragile than GG.

Is this purely a perception thing? Does Garmin actually use GG?

[Vance Harral]

I spent some time searching on this, and I can't find any specifics on the display glass used in the Garmin and Avidyne touch screen products.  Not sure what you mean by them "feeling" more fragile, perhaps it's a personal perception.  They're certainly not made of plastic.

[carusoam]

If you have ever touched the glass of a KLN94 with intention of pushing a button or using it like a touch screen... you will find that the glass krinkles under your finger tip.  They are so inviting they look like a touchscreen. But they are so friable the crunch under the pressure of a finger.  The first touch gives no response, so people touch it again, a little harder each time...

The display doesn't work very well as so many people are so used to touch screens.  The non touch screens are really easy to accidently break.

For anyone interested in more about the gorilla glass...  https://www.corning.com/gorillaglass/worldwide/en/glass-types/gorilla-glass-5.html

The future of touch screens is really bright compared to years ago...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 25, 2017 by carusoam

[toto]

55 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I spent some time searching on this, and I can't find any specifics on the display glass used in the Garmin and Avidyne touch screen products.  Not sure what you mean by them "feeling" more fragile, perhaps it's a personal perception.  They're certainly not made of plastic.

My experience is similar to what @carusoam said about the KLN94.  The GTN screens feel more somewhat more solid to me than the GNS, but certainly with the GNS displays, it's like you're poking a soft LCD with your finger.  Obviously the GNS displays have no touch functionality, so you're not supposed to be pushing them.  But I don't think the GTN touchscreen feels anything like the GG on a smartphone.  The GTN feels like soft plastic, while the phone feels essentially like glass.

[toto]

I just spent 20 minutes searching for the glass material used by Garmin, and I also came up with nothing.  (The only mildly interesting document I found was this one, which is notable only for a photo showing how crazy huge the GTN750 is compared to the GNS530.)

Anyway, despite how it feels to the touch, I'm glad to know that the substance isn't actually cheap plastic, and that I'm not likely to destroy it with a fingernail - thanks @Vance Harral for the education.

[peevee]

what's the deal with the coating on the garmins that seems to turn purple after awhile?