How High Without Oxygen?

[ArtVandelay]

I just use the Boost Oxygen cans. I consider it emergency use only. But I figure if I'm at FL240 and have an O2 problem and loose the onboard oxygen, I can immediately use this to maintain faculties and set the altitude preselect for 10K or something to get the descent started.
The cans weigh nothing and I can have it sitting in my lap while cruising up high.

I tested that, they work well, I went from high 80s to high 90s in 15 seconds.

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I tested that, they work well, I went from high 80s to high 90s in 15 seconds.

Good to know.

The 252 is supposedly good to FL280. But if there was a problem up there, I don't expect I'd have much time before loosing consciousness. I've never been that high, but if I ever did, (maybe to climb over some weather), I'd want to be wearing the pulse ox, the altitude preselect already loaded for lower altitude, and the back up can of O2 in my lap. 

[jlunseth]

The tables all say there is a massive difference between 20,000 and 22,000.  Time of useful consciousness at 20k is 20-30 minutes, at 22k it is 5-10 minutes.  I think you have to factor in the amount of time it might take to detect and O2 system failure, which would be a couple of minutes, so that does not leave you much time to get to a safer altitude if you are at or over 22.  For that reason, I don't generally exceed 22 without a very good reason, and haven't even been to 22 for quite awhile.  

I personally am ok up to about 11 k.  Higher than that works for short periods, but on a long duration trip I just don't feel good.  The symptoms I experience (everyone is different) are two.  First, my speech is not crisp when I talk to ATC.  It is not bad, it is just more like getting up first thing in the morning before you have your coffee.  Just a little bit of stumbling.  Second, I get a feeling like anxiety.  A feeling high up in the chest.  It is not the same as anxiety because there is no mental component, I am not anxious.  I just have the same physical sensation.  It is the result of the body secreting adrenaline to kick itself into gear.  If either one happens, it is time to do something about it.

One of the posters said something about being at 92-94 and a passenger in the 80's.  92 is a minimum.  You are already in trouble at that level.  80 is well into hypoxia and probably on the verge of passing out.

[Brian Scranton]

16 hours ago, steingar said:

 An oxygen bottle and canulae can be purchased inexpensively at most medical supply stores or online.  .

I thought we couldn't use medical O2 because of its H20 content--that at our altitudes the H20/moisture would create problems with the regulator--and that aviation O2 was without the H20. 

[gsxrpilot]

I haven't spent much time in cruise above 20,000 and certainly a lot of things can go wrong. But then there are plenty of ways to die between the runway and pattern altitude as well. I consider the altitude pre-select a safety feature for this case. It's certainly not a guarantee as it can fail as any system can. But since I've got it, I always use it above 20,000. And by that I mean that I have it loaded and set for lower altitude. Usually I set it for 10K but it could be higher if terrain requires it. This way I can just hit one button and the plane will descend to thicker air and level off there. This would typically require declaring an emergency but worse case scenario, I'll deal with it when I wake up at lower altitude.

 

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, Brian Scranton said:

I thought we couldn't use medical O2 because of its H20 content--that at our altitudes the H20/moisture would create problems with the regulator--and that aviation O2 was without the H20. 

A lot of pilots just use O2 from a welding supply co. I don't think the H2O content matters until you're very high, like 40K+.

[steingar]

2 minutes ago, Brian Scranton said:

I thought we couldn't use medical O2 because of its H20 content--that at our altitudes the H20/moisture would create problems with the regulator--and that aviation O2 was without the H20. 

I can't imagine that would affect anything until you get up into altitudes where you need positive pressure to breathe.  Most of our airplanes won't do that.

[1964-M20E]

A fellow pilot and I were having this discussion yesterday bout medical vs aviation O2 and the H2O content.  I would suspect for a fixed system that is outside the cabin without heat could be susceptible to the H2O condensing out and freezing especially at a 1st stage regulator and at high flows.  With a  portable system in the cabin and at any reasonable temp that the occupants think is comfortable I would say that it is not an issue.  JMHO

 

 

[RLCarter]

16 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

A lot of pilots just use O2 from a welding supply co. I don't think the H2O content matters until you're very high, like 40K+.

Most of the welding supply companies offer medical grade gasses as well, at least for O2, N2o and Argon. 

[milotron]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I just use the Boost Oxygen cans. I consider it emergency use only. But I figure if I'm at FL240 and have an O2 problem and loose the onboard oxygen, I can immediately use this to maintain faculties and set the altitude preselect for 10K or something to get the descent started.

The cans weigh nothing and I can have it sitting in my lap while cruising up high.

Nice idea. More compact and inexpensive than the full tank/regulator assembly I was considering.

 

Thanks,

 

iain

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

there is a REALLY simple answer to your question.... buy an oximeter, put it on your finger when you re sitting in your favourite chair in front of the TV and see what it says.  Thats your "NORMAL" O2 reading (im waiting fo rthe medical backlash here, form @Deb and co).  Now go flying, you want to keep your oximeter reading the same level as your armchair as you KNOW you can function ok at that level.  If it drops below 92% you need Oxygen, after all the Docs put their patients on O2 at about that level.

so itsNOT about altitude but about YOUR body and how it responds to altitude.  

Yes!  The numbers on the pulse ox aren't so important as is the delta between that number and whatever number is your constant... kinda like EGT.

And everyone reacts to O2 debt differently.

[lamont337]

I used to fly from Vegas to Phoenix quite a bit, usually at just 7500 or 9500. Never had a problem in flight but more often than not I would get headaches later in the evening. Raging headaches. Worst I've ever had. Once I felt it coming on there was no amount at water or aspirin tha helped. Even when I didn't get headaches I was more fatigued than I should have been. Portable Skyox and oximeter solved all of this.

I also noted early on that I simply relax too much in cruise. My breathing slows way down. Now I purposefully take several deep breaths every few minutes, even at lower altitudes. It helps a great deal. 

I realize that most of this thread is concerned with the in flight portion, but how you feel after landing is a consideration as well.

[steingar]

I never got symptoms of actual illness, but long flights in the low teens leave me utterly enervated.  I certainly don't have a good time after my arrival until I've had a night's sleep.  An O2 bottle and some cannula sound like a cheap way to beat that.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

PS I HATE the touchpad on my new laptop!

Andrew

Off topic: I got a new Asus laptop about a year ago from work and the touch pad drives me crazy. Even though it is supposed to not recognize input if you are resting your hand on it, it still will and drop the cursor to wherever it is on the screen. This is despite changing the delay settings for the touch pad. I typically am using a mouse so I have taken to turning the touch pad off if I have a mouse plugged in. Just the Function key and F9 turns it off and on. (There is a setting that is supposed to turn it off if a mouse is connected but it doesn't work) If I'm not using a mouse it's just a quick keypress to turn the touch pad back on. Doing this has prevented my laptop from suffering an early demise...

Now back to the discussion.

55 minutes ago, lamont337 said:

I used to fly from Vegas to Phoenix quite a bit, usually at just 7500 or 9500. Never had a problem in flight but more often than not I would get headaches later in the evening. Raging headaches. Worst I've ever had. Once I felt it coming on there was no amount at water or aspirin tha helped. Even when I didn't get headaches I was more fatigued than I should have been. Portable Skyox and oximeter solved all of this.

I also noted early on that I simply relax too much in cruise. My breathing slows way down. Now I purposefully take several deep breaths every few minutes, even at lower altitudes. It helps a great deal. 

I realize that most of this thread is concerned with the in flight portion, but how you feel after landing is a consideration as well.

I relax in cruise and my breathing will slow down as well. I have taken to quietly humming or singing which causes me to take deeper breaths and keeps my saturation levels higher (with years of training as a singer I automatically take deep breaths to fill my lungs when singing). It also keeps me more alert as my brain isn't just drifting off and day dreaming. Although, I could argue that I often day dream about flying, so flying is very close to dreaming 

[DonMuncy]

7 hours ago, DMJones said:

In the FWIW department, those oxymeters are about half price if you get them from a store that doesn't have "airplane" or "aircraft" in the store name!  Check Amazon, if you haven't already.

I should have mentioned that. You should be able to find them for $35 or $40. I have checked a cheap one against my (very expensive) first one, and they give almost exactly the same readings.

[MBDiagMan]

Got one on Amazon for $27 including shipping.

[ArtVandelay]

Got one on Amazon for $27 including shipping.

That's an expensive one, they are as low as $13, with free shipping.

[Piloto]

My only concern flying above 12,000ft with no O2 is falling asleep. But then I fall asleep at noon just watching the news. Maybe is the recliner.

José

[peevee]

On 6/20/2017 at 11:03 AM, Brian Scranton said:

Depends where you live. I know guys who live at sea level and they put O2 on above 6000! I live at 7000 feet and don't use O2 until above 15K. 

I also measure my O2 sats...once they are below 90, I add O2. 

living at altitude and your cardio health make a huge difference for me. I can go the legal 30 minutes and be fine from 12,5-14,000 and then must comply. If I've been doing my elliptical workouts my sats won't drop much.

 

x2 on the oximiters. I see them sold under a million brands and they're all the same design probably from the same factory in china.

[peevee]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Good to know.

The 252 is supposedly good to FL280. But if there was a problem up there, I don't expect I'd have much time before loosing consciousness. I've never been that high, but if I ever did, (maybe to climb over some weather), I'd want to be wearing the pulse ox, the altitude preselect already loaded for lower altitude, and the back up can of O2 in my lap. 

I really recommend the o2d2 from mountain high (or the precise flight setup)

it saves o2 and alarms if the flow stops due to o2 not flowing or if it's not triggering from breathing, you turn it on and leave it and it manages your o2 automatically. I just got one finally and I'm super happy with it.

 

[Yetti]

When I was young and before I started riding bikes, I was very susceptible to altitude sickness.  I have thrown up in Mexico City and Pike peak cog train.  I learned on several ski trips that carbs will fix the headaches and other symptoms pasta and chocolate chip mint ice cream have worked.

[peevee]

Just now, Yetti said:

When I was young and before I started riding bikes, I was very susceptible to altitude sickness.  I have thrown up in Mexico City and Pike peak cog train.  I learned on several ski trips that carbs will fix the headaches and other symptoms pasta and chocolate chip mint ice cream have worked.

LOL

the pikes peak cog is hilarious to ride up and watch the flatlanders turn colors. I get up to the top and hop around from rock to rock taking pics, it doesn't phase me. Several hours or a lot of exertion and it would flatten me I'm sure, but I've hiked plenty of 14ers. Just the difference in going up 8k feet from normal and 14k feet from normal.

I've been slacking on working out, that made the biggest difference.

[Yetti]

Yep on working out.  I started riding bikes in 97.   I have done Ride the Rockies, mtn biked in Durango and done several 14ers since then with no issues.  Well except the time drove straight from Houston slept and did a 14er.   Had to go down to Durango to recover.

[peevee]

Just now, Yetti said:

Yep on working out.  I started riding bikes in 97.   I have done Ride the Rockies, mtn biked in Durango and done several 14ers since then with no issues.  Well except the time drove straight from Houston slept and did a 14er.   Had to go down to Durango to recover.

I'm slow as balls but I trudge up the 14ers.

[Yetti]

I quit doing 14ers when I realized you have to walk down them once you got up there.    I'd much rather earn the climb and enjoy rolling the downhill.  Best ever downhill is Red Mountain Pass to Montrose.