New plane, noob mistakes, buying experience with Skywagons L.L.C.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Hello!  This is my first thread.  I've posted a little on another thread and received lots of help! Since then I have made good progress on the plane.  

A little background info:

I bought a 67 M20F,  N9623M.  This is my first plane!  I have 40 hours in a champ but decided not to go LSA and bought the Mooney to travel.  I took delivery on March 7th to Goodyear airport where she is hangered (rent is $158 per month commence rent envy!).  I purchased 9263M because she had 100hr engine from Tim's Aircraft 2013, O&N bladders 2013(54 Gallon, I know 64 Gal is better), an AD free prop, 3000 TT, and it was 50K.  Original interior and paint, old avionics, she was ugly but I was concerned about mechanical condition, her looks have grown on me and it's cheaper to buy a 1960's outfit and use a nostalgia filter for airplane pics than paint and upholster her.  I purchased the plane from Skywagons LLC and had a pre-buy done by Placerville Aviation.  The flap pump was rebuilt at Skywagons expense and the pre-buy was turned into an annual.  She was delivered on March 7th and Kerry from Skywagons told me the transponder didn't work and they would pay for it and they did.  He said everything else was good to go!  It was a 3 hour flight. 

Although I was assured everything worked, I was new to planes so this is the list of problems so far, the ones marked fixed I took care of or paid to have it done.  I am fairly mechanically competent.:

1. Intermittent Audio Panel (Fixed)

2. Starter solenoid breaker popping.  (Fixed, just dirty terminals)

3. Manifold pressure gauge inop (Fixed, clogged line)

4. Gear up/down lights intermittent (sticky limit switches cleaned with contact cleaner, not tested yet)

5.  Autopilot, wing leveler, torn servo bags (need to order from Brittain, was told autopilot worked good.  It pulls the yokes hard left.)

6.  Starter vibrator Shower of sparks inop (Fixed with new, old had water damage see photos, sealed avionics access panels with weather stripping) 

7.  Flaps would self-retract in flight and leak from pump that was a fun first flight when they retracted on final (sent back to laser have not flight tested yet)

8.  Vac high/Low switch inop (tapped, started working, not available?, has little gauge on right panel anyway) 

9. Crazy loose left cowl flap with elongated holes, mechanic says not airworthy (I am currently waiting on hardware from Aircraft Spruce may have to go up next bolt size)

10. Panel lights are intermittent (haven't had a chance to address)

11.  Aileron control tube rubbing, found wile lubing guide blocks that were bone dry see picture, what could cause this?  Worn guide blocks?

I sent an email to Mark who owns Skywagons LLC, he explained old planes have problems that will come up as you fly them.  I have flown plane 1 hr, and worked on it for probably 60-100 hrs trouble shooting and fixing issues.  I think there are too many issues for them not to have known, also I wonder if they were working with Placerville aviation on the Pre-buy since they are located on same field.  I am taking this as a learning experience and an excuse to buy tools!  I don't have much recourse since it was AS-IS. I know my plane better than my cars now, so hopefully this will work out for the best.  

On the positive side: Step retracts on engine start-up, so that works!  

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch
Added info

[orionflt]

welcome to the world of aircraft ownership, don't worry it will get better after you groom her for a few years.

Brian

[Zwaustin]

Welcome to ownership, I mean that in a good way despite the cirumstances. A good pre buy goes a long way for others thinking of buying, it is pay nor or pay later in my opinion. I believe in doing it up front so the "enjoyability" factor is higher while putting your first 100 or so hours on the bird. It is true in a sense that little kinks are going to pop up in first 100 or so hours even with a good pre buy.... Get them addressed and keep flying the bird until your first annual comes along and prepare to do it right so you can further enjoy ownership. My Mooney cost me only 170 an hour all in after I sold it. Doesn't get much better and that was a K model. Owning is better than renting!

[rbridges]

I know it sucks, but if you don't have fuel leaks, there is no major corrosion and your engine runs well, you've avoided the three most costly pitfalls.  The other stuff sucks, but it could be a lot worse.  I'd hate the think the seller tried to hide stuff, but you own the plane now and it doesn't look like it will take much to keep you going.

[PTK]

Look at it this way: you will spend quality hangar time and become intimate with your queen!

There are "annuals" and there are annuals! But at this point that's irrelevant. You could have taken it to a msc.  You decided to buy it saving some money. 

[1967 427]

First of all congrats on purchasing a Mooney.  I also purchased a Mooney from then about 5 years ago.  I feel your pain, but as commented in a previous post, the longer you own her and groom her, the better she will become.  I would not hesitate in jumping into my bird and flying cross country, or at least to Oshkosh.

Now for playing dad.  Shame on you.  I'm not saying that the local shop was in "cahoots" (yes I have to use father words) with Skywagons, I am saying that the proximity of both Top Gun and Laser (both are authorities in Mooney) would definitely give you a more warm and comfortable feeling since Mooneys are their expertise.

I personally used Top Gun and they generated two thorough lists.  One list of items that needed immediate attention and a list of items that didn't preclude my plane from being airworthy, but if I had unlimited financial resources, could be addressed.  5 years later I have been slowly checking off items on the second list.

I know that you haven't had much time in your bird yet, but I hope you will enjoy yours as much as I love mine.

[gsxrpilot]

Sorry to hear of these issues. I've been keeping a list of Mooney purchases that didn't go as well as they should have. Your example has been added to the list.

I wish we had some way of providing warning to newbies trying to purchase a Mooney for the first time. I was there myself once and it's a daunting task with so many unknowns and pitfalls.  As @1967 427 said, no one should buy a Mooney in that part of the country without a pre-buy from either Top Gun or LASAR. And anyone selling a Mooney in CA, NV, OR, WA who won't let their plane go to one of those two shops for a pre-buy, should immediately be discarded from consideration.

Here in the Central US and South Central, the shops are Don Maxwell or SWTA.

A pre-buy from a reputable MSC is often worth more than you're spending on the plane.

 

[Guest]

Some "Annual inspections" include working on the airplane and the log books,  others only include the log books.  

Clarence

[HRM]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

Look at it this way: you will spend quality hangar time and become intimate with your queen!

Mistress. The queen hates her. Frankly, I do love lavishing attention and spending quality time with her (the mistress that is).

Don't get me wrong, the queen is fun, but sometimes you just want to be alone with an airplane. It's good to be the king.

[Brian Scranton]

First--congrats. Second, welcome to aviation! I purchased my first plane from Mark back in 2013--Placerville aviation did the pre buy, which turned into an annual. It was an awesome 1968 182L with mid time on it. On our 5 hour flight back, we found a shit ton of stuff that didn't work. Awesome way to practice dead reckoning...because there was literally no nav. No GPS. Not to mention the fact that 20 years of logs were missing. But, no leaks, the engine was great, and ultimately, I spent some money putting in a new radio an audio panel, new glideslope receiver, replacing some tires, resealing some pushrods, new valve cover gaskets, some interior lighting fixes...and sold the plane 3 years later for exactly what I paid for it...minus the improvements (~$15K) and ~350 hours flown between me and another pilot. I call it a wash. And I learned a lot. I don't think Mark screwed ya...I think he sold you an old plane for old plane from a dealer prices.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

PTK at first I was angry and bitter, since then it's become therapeutic to go to the hanger away from everyone.  I agree 1967 427, I have since learned more about Lasar and wish I would have let them do the pre-buy.  Placerville Aviation was convenient, and I thought IA meant more than it did.  orionflt, Zwaustin, rbridges, I knew there would be issues but I was thinking 3 or 4 a year, not 10 to start with!  So far my figures are $51,000 plus 60 hrs of my labor per flight hour!   

gsxrpilot, MSC are in my future, mahbe not for every annual but at least every 3rd or so to check the gear pre-load, or any other mooney specific stuff.  

M20Doc, I think the Pen might get more use than the tools over there in Placerville.  

HRM, I find the Queen doesnt like to hang around the mistress in the hanger, which gets me out from under the Queens thumb for a little while!

Brian Scranton, I won't have this happen again thats for sure, it's been a steep learning curve!  I know what you're saying about Mark, but you can't sell a plane that has this many issues, without disclosure, that's shady.  I don't blame Mark entirely.  It was also Steve at Placerville Aviation who's job was to find problems!  It was mostly my fault for not having done enough research.  

In the end its not bad, as rbridges said, no fuel leaks, engine is sweet, prop looks good, and no corrosion.  It will be a fun bird when I finish her.

 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Does anyone know what's up with the aileron control tube rubbing in the pic?  Also little black specks when I check the fuel with the gats jar.  You can almost smear them between your fingers.  Is this something to wory about, should I drain the tanks using a funnel, fuel line, and a clear automotive filter until specks stop and then return clean fuel to tanks?

Also here are a couple pics of the older woman who takes all my time!  Some are pics from when she was 4 sale.  

That interior is what inspired my username on MooneySpace.  I know that panel is wack!  I spend my time leering at some of the panels posted here.  

Edited June 20, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch
Added info

[Guest]

The rubbing aileron push rod may be slightly bent or it may be missing some shim washers at the outer bell crank.  Mooney is famous for adding washers at rod end bearings, if they were dropped and not noticed during maintenance the rod could droop.

In the panel picture it looks like you've left the mag switch ON.

Clarence

[Marcopolo]

Don't change a thing, hang it in the museum just the way it is!  This is probably the most original looking example I've seen on mooneyspace yet.

 

Love it!

Ron

[steingar]

Just how it is.  You buy a decades old complex vehicle and stuff breaks.  Keep fixing it, the aircraft will get there.  

I sold a 1983 Honda Goldwing recently.  Right away the throttle cable snapped and the brake caliper froze up.  I felt really bad for him  but I told him when he bought it that it was an old bike and stuff would break.

[Dham]

Congrats on the plane. It has been said many times here to have about 10 grand After purchase for unknowns . I would suggest you start with a annual from a Mooney guy preferably not familiar with your plan history. To make long story short I like many others was in your place. My  plane was just out of annual (Whoope do) when I purchased it thought I was ready to go but for two years I was always behind the eight ball always chasing  something thinking each time that should do it. Ignorance does not make you safe looking back on my two year journey it is a wonder I was not a statistic and after loosing confidence in my plane and two inflight  Engine loss l took it to don maxwell had I started there I would have saved a LOT of money and time. If you are not familiar with Mooney planes don't think you are. I don't mind fixing probables as they arise but start with a good annual. If I had it to do over I would do many things different one would be not wait for my annual to get on top of problems after two years Dmax still found 6 pages of items. (AD,s never done and 1200 hours taken off the engine through "magic" log books. Just to name a couple ) Good luck on your journey. It will be worth it. 

[Dham]

P.S. get engine monitor first thing I did and it has saved my bacon and helps navigate through the process of trouble shooting. Love my JPI 830. 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The rubbing aileron push rod may be slightly bent or it may be missing some shim washers at the outer bell crank.  Mooney is famous for adding washers at rod end bearings, if they were dropped and not noticed during maintenance the rod could droop.

In the panel picture it looks like you've left the mag switch ON.

Clarence

Hey Clarence, thanks!, I'll check both sides for washers, maybe someone installed washers on the top instead of the bottom or something, stuff like that happens, they figure as long as all the parts get back in there! You are very perceptive, someone did leave mags on, that pic was taken by the seller before I bought it, its just a good pic of the panel so I posted it.  

Steinger, two things, three things, but nine or ten, no way.  Besides these issues were present the day they dropped it off.  Its coming along, I fix two issues and find one more under those access panels.

Dham, once you get "caught up" is it like 3 or 4 things a year, something managable?  Thats scarey having engine outs, is your plane reliable now?  I guess I got a decent deal after reading your experience.  It's an education in aircraft repair.  It was like my dad used to say when I was 15 and working on his car while he was watching TV, "I should charge you for this valuable education!"  Lol, it has helped! But im still looking for a discount nursing home.  I do plan to take it to a MSC for it's next annual.  

 

 

 

[Dham]

Since getting it back from Dmax I feel a lot better about the plane I know that the plane and log books have been gone over. Now I am at a good starting point. There is always something that can been done I budget (haha alway go over) so much each year for annuals etc. this year I hope to work off the WANT side of the list instead of the NEED side.   The guys here on MS are awesome when it comes to help and resources. Hope you  get to work on the want side of your list more than the need side. It more fun. 

[Godfather]

12 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

PTK at first I was angry and bitter, since then it's become therapeutic to go to the hanger away from everyone.  I agree 1967 427, I have since learned more about Lasar and wish I would have let them do the pre-buy.  Placerville Aviation was convenient, and I thought IA meant more than it did.  orionflt, Zwaustin, rbridges, I knew there would be issues but I was thinking 3 or 4 a year, not 10 to start with!  So far my figures are $51,000 plus 60 hrs of my labor per flight hour!   

gsxrpilot, MSC are in my future, mahbe not for every annual but at least every 3rd or so to check the gear pre-load, or any other mooney specific stuff.  

M20Doc, I think the Pen might get more use than the tools over there in Placerville.  

HRM, I find the Queen doesnt like to hang around the mistress in the hanger, which gets me out from under the Queens thumb for a little while!

Brian Scranton, I won't have this happen again thats for sure, it's been a steep learning curve!  I know what you're saying about Mark, but you can't sell a plane that has this many issues, without disclosure, that's shady.  I don't blame Mark entirely.  It was also Steve at Placerville Aviation who's job was to find problems!  It was mostly my fault for not having done enough research.  

In the end its not bad, as rbridges said, no fuel leaks, engine is sweet, prop looks good, and no corrosion.  It will be a fun bird when I finish her.

 

A prebuy does not fix anything and will probably cost you over $1500 from a top name shop.  If they found 10k worth of discrepancies would you have walked?  Will you be upset with your current IA if the MSC gives you a $7k bill next year?

Your plane has been flying 25 hrs a year for decades...you can't expect it to run as well as a 3 year old civic that used every day. Sounds like you saved yourself 3-4K in labor doing a lot of the work because you are handy.  Keep up the good work and enjoy your new plane. 

For a reference how many hours of inspection did you pay for at Placerville?

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

I think the pre-buy was only 4 or 5 hundred.  Then it turned onto an annual that was approximately $1700.  I think you may be right, I probably saved a ton since I didnt pay 7k for an annual.  I have searched the plane looking for problems and am trying to fix them all.  Maybe my annual will be cheaper.  I assisted an A&P on the complex stuff beyond owner maint.  Honestly I want to be the one that turns wrenches because there is at least 3 hours of research for anything I touch. I hated not flying but now there are a couple homebuilders in the hangers next to me and its a kind of church for me now, the flying will be a bonus.  Thanks Godfather I think I'm coming out ahead now, thanks for thr point of view!  

Edited June 20, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

You guys are therapists and technical advisers!  

[steingar]

If you want to really feel better there's a thread on here about a Mooney that was in the shop for about a year after purchase.  I think it still needs work, too.

Edited July 5, 2017 by steingar

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Thank you Skmoore63, I hope thats it.  I want to clean fuel strainer at selector valve, is it difficult?  Also what about filter after booster pump?  Maint manual says to do it every 50 hours or something rediculous.  I don't see it done over the last couple of years of logbooks, how often do y'all do this?  

[DonMuncy]

I have followed this thread with great (academic; as I don't plan on buying a different plane for some time) interest.

As good as PPIs are, and as good as a few of our Mooney gurus are, there is no way to absolutely guarantee everything on a used plane. If a great Mooney guy were to look at every inch of everything on every part of a plane, we could never afford that PPI. And even then there would be "that switch that worked when I checked it an hour ago, and now it doesn't". The best we can do is get the best guy we can, get him to do a good (but not perfect) PPI, and cross our fingers. And hopefully the missed items were small/cheap ones.

Understand I am not saying it is OK for a PPI to miss too many items, but I'm not sure how many are too many. Everyone will have a different opinion.