Interested in this M20G on trade a plane

[CDO]

 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/mobile/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20G&s-type=aircraft

 

 Hi all, I am interested in this M20g, it would be my first aircraft. I got a chance to ride on the right seat of a mooney M20c, and wanted a mooney ever since. I would like to hear your opinon or feedback about this. I am currently a multi commercial with just  about 225hr. Planning to use it to get my CFI ticket and fly it to build hours whenever I can. I got an insurance quote from OAPA, seems reasonable. Does anyone know about this particullar M20G? I am from Philadelphia, PA and this M20G is from Northwest Montana, so I have not seen this aircraft in person. For procedure wise, where or how should I go from here?

thank you,

 CDo

Edited May 18, 2017 by CDO

[Dave Colangelo]

Get a good PPI, do your due diligence, all the standard advice etc. etc. but it has a low time engine and some decent avionics assuming they are all in good shape.  Interior and paint seem nice but you will need a close up inspection to really tell. Lots of great info on here about what to look for when inspecting. 

 

On a side note, I too am in Philly, if you ever want some company when you fly drop me a line. 

 

Dave

Edited May 18, 2017 by Dave Colangelo

[carusoam]

It is hard to buy a plane that is far away...

1) get as many pictures and log books emailed first...

2) If step one goes well...  you want to see it in person.

3) If step 2 goes well...  you want to arrange a PPI.

4) all of this stuff takes days to make happen. It is hard to be in the neighborhood when you have a job to do back home.

5) negotiating on price is more of a challenge when you have to go there a few times...

6) If step 3 goes well you are into your third trip and you are planning on taking it home with you by then.

7) it better be a good plane before going through all this effort...

PP thoughts only, I have only bought one plane that was far away. It was in really good condition and being sold by a reputable house who was easy to work with getting photos and logs...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 19, 2017 by carusoam

[peevee]

prebuy might be tough, nearest mooney service center is probably galvin at KBFI, and I do not recommend them. arapahoe aero in denver might be the next closest. All might be further than the owner is willing to accomodate. Looks nice on the surface.

[Mcstealth]

On May 18, 2017 at 11:55 AM, CDO said:

 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/mobile/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20G&s-type=aircraft

 

 Hi all, I am interested in this M20g, it would be my first aircraft. I got a chance to ride on the right seat of a mooney M20c, and wanted a mooney ever since. I would like to hear your opinon or feedback about this. I am currently a multi commercial with just  about 225hr. Planning to use it to get my CFI ticket and fly it to build hours whenever I can. I got an insurance quote from OAPA, seems reasonable. Does anyone know about this particullar M20G? I am from Philadelphia, PA and this M20G is from Northwest Montana, so I have not seen this aircraft in person. For procedure wise, where or how should I go from here?

thank you,

 CDo

Welcome to the forum. 

Good luck on the purchase.

Remember the G has the 180hp motor, not the 200. 

Understand you want to use it just to build hours which is great, just the utility of a G is less than a C or E. 

Unless the owner is willing to do a lot for you, you may be hard pressed to get all the information you need in order to make an informed decision.  

Again, welcome to the forum.  

 

 

[CDO]

Thank you for your input guys,

The broker sent me the logbooks for last five years seem to be well maintained. Look likes it average about 30hr a year for the last five years.

Do you think that is too little time per year for the engine? 

Just like you guy mentioned above PPI is a must for me but no mooney center around there. I think I will pass on this one unless they can drop it off at mooney service center for me.

 

 

[CDO]

@Dave Colangelo I Like have companies to fly with so ill hit you up when i get my own bird. Let me know if you need a safety pilot or just to keep you company, we can share expenses.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2017 by CDO

[AlexLev]

I have a G and it's my first airplane and I adore it. I've taken it with 4 people and have even been able to load it up with 4 pax + full fuel and be 5lbs undergross. I do wish I had an extra hundred pounds of UL, but what Mooney owner doesn't? As far as speed -- I get about 136kts, which I think is respectable for a 180HP engine.

That particular airplane? It's tough to say...the engine is pretty old. That would be my biggest concern, but you honestly never know and should be prepared to overhaul at all times IMO. I bought my airplane with an engine that was overhauled in 2002 and had about 900 hours on it at the time.

Edited May 20, 2017 by AlexLev

[kpaul]

http://www.cabincreekbb.com/news/chet-taking-off-in-the-m20g-mooney-in-marion-mt-at-cabin-creek-landing-airstrip/

Here are a couple of videos of that G flying out of the owners B&B.

[peevee]

4 hours ago, kpaul said:

http://www.cabincreekbb.com/news/chet-taking-off-in-the-m20g-mooney-in-marion-mt-at-cabin-creek-landing-airstrip/

Here are a couple of videos of that G flying out of the owners B&B.

interesting. I had family in marion, it's not a big place. Anyway, thanks for the link, I'm going to bookmark it and stay there some time.

[Rmag]

12 hours ago, CDO said:

The broker sent me the logbooks for last five years seem to be well maintained. Look likes it average about 30hr a year for the last five years.

Do you think that is too little time per year for the engine? 

Personally I would want to see all the logs, not just 5 years.  10 years ago it could have had damage, etc.  

30/year is light, but it's also how that 30 hours was put on.  1 hr flight every 2 weeks is better than 10 hour flights 3 times per year.

You definately want the engine borescoped at the PPI. 

[CDO]

Well I offer to put deposite on the plane and will pay for the fuel cost to get it to a MSC. Here is the answer from the broker "Cong......don't think the owner is willing to see the plane leave the area unless the full purchase price in in escrow. This plane has been maintained locally and a local pre-purchase inspection should be sufficient."

How should escrow work in aviation? Has anyone done this before? Is this a normal step in purchasing an airplane? Should I just move on?

 

[carusoam]

The escrow is more of a financial method of trading money for an item. The third party typically holds the money during the transaction.

Done properly, you get the plane, they release the funds.

I don't think aviation changes the purchase in this respect.

The last thing you want to do is hand over a stack of dough to somebody that doesn't legally own the plane...

The bigger challenge is the lack of interest in getting the plane to the MSC for a PPI.

Have you seen the plane yet?

The broker is heading down a path to minimize his risk.  If you are trying to minimize your risk, you will be writing a purchase agreement to document all the agreed upon steps... 

he essentially is calling you a tire-kicker...  but he doesn't make the decisions. The owner does.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 27, 2017 by carusoam

[peevee]

39 minutes ago, CDO said:

Well I offer to put deposite on the plane and will pay for the fuel cost to get it to a MSC. Here is the answer from the broker "Cong......don't think the owner is willing to see the plane leave the area unless the full purchase price in in escrow. This plane has been maintained locally and a local pre-purchase inspection should be sufficient."

How should escrow work in aviation? Has anyone done this before? Is this a normal step in purchasing an airplane? Should I just move on?

 

it's not what I'd consider an unreasonable request.

I have used aerospace reports in OKC, they charged us about 600 or 700 to escrow and handle the closing on our plane, my experience was top notch. Basically you call and give them the plane and seller info, you wire them the funds, the seller sends them a bill of sale. Once you're good to close you call and authorize the closing, then they wire the funds back out to the seller and record the sale with the FAA. They also handle the title search and such. They would also hold the deposit, not that there would be one in this case.

If it's a good plane and what you want I would consider it to be a minor speed bump in the process. In fact I would let aerospace reports handle any closing I did. They offer a 10% AOPA discount, too

 

If you're buying the plane to build hours and sell perhaps you don't care about a super thorough prebuy. If they'll entertain it I would consider the shop in willmar MN, it puts the plane that much closer to you and they were very reasonable on a prebuy they did for us (we didn't purchase because of it). I doubt they'll go that far, he doesn't sound terribly serious about selling.

 

If you're financing IIRC our lender closed the loan and sent the funds ahead of the airplane closing so that was all super easy.

[gsxrpilot]

To execute a transaction you must have a serious buyer and a serious seller.

A 10% cash deposit, an agreed upon price pending pre-buy, and a signed contract to buy with pre-buy conditions spelled out clearly - should be enough to prove the buyer serious and able. If that's not enough for the seller to allow the plane to be inspected by an MSC and especially a shop other than the one that has been doing the maintenance/annuals recently - I'd say the seller is not serious.

If either party is not serious about the transaction, it's time to move on.

[BKlott]

Here is some info for you about the airplane's history:

N Number: 9145V
Last Action Date	2014-05-21
Airworthiness Date	1969-03-21		Expiration Date	2017-06-30
Manufacturer_Name	MOONEY		Model Name	M-20G
Registrant Name	TODD RICHARD B		Street	1771 BITTERROOT DR # 12
Registrant City	MARION		Registrant State	MT
Registrant Zip Code	599259854		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Northwest Mountain		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2007-05-19
Status	Second Notice for Registration Renewal
Serial Number	690011		Aircraft Type	Fixed wing single engine
Mode S Code	53124242		Year Mfr	1969
Aircraft Category	Land		Builder Certification	Type Certificated
Number Engines	1		Number Seats	4
Aircraft Weight	CLASS 1		Aircraft Cruising Speed	127
Airworthiness Classification	Standard		Approved Operation Codes	Normal
Engine Manufacturer	LYCOMING
Engine Model Name	O&VO-360 SER		Engine Type	Reciprocating
Engine Horsepower/Thrust	0		Fuel Consumed	0.00
------- History 1 -------
Last Action Date	2011-06-29
Registrant Name	TODD RICHARD B		Street	1771 BITTERROOT DR # 12
Registrant City	MARION		Registrant State	MT
Registrant Zip Code	599259854		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Northwest Mountain		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2007-05-19
Status	Second Notice for Registration Renewal
------- History 2 -------
Last Action Date	2007-08-06
Registrant Name	TODD RICHARD B		Street	1771 BITTERROOT DR # 12
Registrant City	MARION		Registrant State	MT
Registrant Zip Code	59925-9854		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Northwest Mountain		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2007-05-19
Status	First Notice for Re- Registration/Renewal
------- History 3 -------
Last Action Date	2007-07-12
Registrant Name	TODD RICHARD B		Street	1771 BITTERROOT DR
Registrant City	MARION		Registrant State	MT
Registrant Zip Code	59925-9854		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Northwest Mountain		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2007-05-19
Status	N-Number Assigned and Registered
------- History 4 -------
Last Action Date	2007-05-19
Registrant Name	TODD RICHARD B		Street	1771 BITTERROOT DR
Registrant City	MARION		Registrant State	MT
Registrant Zip Code	59925-9854		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Northwest Mountain		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2007-05-19
Status	N-Number Assigned and Registered
------- History 5 -------
Last Action Date	2007-02-06
Registrant Name	BENCHMARK BANK		Street	5700 LEGACY DR # 10
Registrant City	PLANO		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	75024-7133		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Corporation
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	2007-02-06
Status	N-Number Assigned and Registered
------- History 6 -------
Last Action Date	2002-09-12
Registrant Name	REGISTRATION PENDING		Street	4639 IRVING BLVD STE 314
Registrant City	DALLAS		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	75247-5723		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date
Status	Registration pending
------- History 7 -------
Last Action Date	2002-06-19
Registrant Name	SALE REPORTED		Street	4545 EDDIE RICKENBACKER ST
Registrant City	ADDISON		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	75001-5303		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Individual
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date
Status	Sale reported
------- History 8 -------
Last Action Date	2002-05-14
Registrant Name	SAMPSON JACK L		Street	848 W BEDFORD EULESS RD
Registrant City	HURST		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	76053-3859		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1999-02-03
Status	The Triennial Aircraft Registration form was mailed and has not been returned by the Post Office
------- History 9 -------
Last Action Date	1999-06-04
Registrant Name	SAMPSON JACK L		Street	848 W BEDFORD EULESS RD
Registrant City	HURST		Registrant State	TX
Registrant Zip Code	76053-3859		Country	UNITED STATES
Region	Southwestern		Registrant Type	Co-Owned
Fract Owner			Certificate Issue Date	1999-02-03
Status	N-Number assigned
***** No Deregistered Data Found *****
***** No Reserved Data Found *****
------- FAA Accident/Incident 1 -------
Occurrence Date	1973-01-26		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20D		Damage	SUBSTANTIAL
Document Last Modified	2012-08-08
Narrative
***** No NTBS Accidents Found *****
------- NTBS Pre 1982 Accident 1 -------
Qccurrence Date	1973-01-26		Aircraft Make	MOONEY
Aircraft Model	M20G		Aircraft Serial Number	000000690011
Damage	SUBSTANTIAL		Accident Location	SACRAMENTO,CALIF
Occurrences	COLLIDED WITH WIRES/POLES		Phase of Flight	IN FLIGHT - LOW PASS
Causes	FAILED TO SEE AND AVOID OBJECTS OR OBSTRUCTIONS HIGH OBSTRUCTIONS		Narrative
------- SDR 1 -------
Date Of Report	1996-07-03		Operator Control Number	96ZZZX3349
Date Of Occurrence	1996-01-11		Aircraft Registration	9145V
Aircraft Manufacturer	MOONEY		Aircraft Group Code	M20
Aircraft Manufacturer Model	M20G		Aircraft Make Model Sequence	5870316
Air Carrier Name	Unknown		Air Carrier Operation Code
Operation Type	G		Stage Of Operation	INSP/MAINT
Severity Factor			Air Transport Association Code	Nose/Tail Landing Gear
Precautionary Procedures	NONE		Nature Of Condition	OTHER
Segment	AIRFRAME		Descriptive Name Of Part	FITTING
Defective Location On Aircraft	NLG		Failed Part Condition	RUSTY
Part Total Time	4,850		Part Total Time Since Overhaul
Component Manufacturer			Component Manufacturer Model
Component Manufacturer Number			Manufacturer Part Number	540015001
Ata Code
Remarks	DISASSEMBLY TO CHANGE NLG BISCUITS FOUND CORROSION INSIDE FITTING WHICH GOES UP THROUGH BISCUIT. MLG OK. RUST HAS PENETRATED THROUGH OVER ONE-HALF OF TUBE WELL. THIS TUBE WAS WET WITH MOISTURE AND HAD A RUSTY PASTE. NEW PART WAS UNPAINTED INSIDE TUBE. SUBMITTER RECOMMENDS PERIODIC INSPECTION AND PERIODIC APPLICATION OF LINSEED OIL. EST PART TIS: 4,850.0 HRS, 27 YEARS.

[CDO]

Lol no wonder they are so hesitated about going to a MSC for PPI, the broker told me NDH over the phone. Thank you MS very much for looking out for this rookie.Back to square one, please let me know if there is a Pre J mooney that I should look at. NTSB's report is the FIRST thing i will look at next time.

Edited May 28, 2017 by CDO

[BKlott]

You are very welcome!

[wombat]

On 5/19/2017 at 8:04 AM, peevee said:

prebuy might be tough, nearest mooney service center is probably galvin at KBFI, and I do not recommend them. arapahoe aero in denver might be the next closest. All might be further than the owner is willing to accomodate. Looks nice on the surface.

Prebuy at Galvin at KBFI?  Galvin just does flight training, they are not a full FBO, and I don't think they were ever a MSC.    Advanced Aircraft, in Troutdale Oregon at KTTD is a MSC and from Kalispell, MT is about the same distance, roughly speaking.

[peevee]

6 hours ago, wombat said:

Prebuy at Galvin at KBFI?  Galvin just does flight training, they are not a full FBO, and I don't think they were ever a MSC.    Advanced Aircraft, in Troutdale Oregon at KTTD is a MSC and from Kalispell, MT is about the same distance, roughly speaking.

That's all news to Mooney.

Galvin is listed as a msc and the only msc in or is listed in Roseville

 

As I can't find the map and msc list on the website and haven't for awhile this will have to suffice 

msc.pdf

 

Galvin used to be a full service fbo and offered maintenance. I don't know ow if they do now or the reasons they don't any longer but they worked on a 414 for me and were incompetent. They were sold a few years back however.

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/galvin-flying-services-sold/

 

Bfi is almost 50 miles closer than troutdale. It's also easier to fly home out of seattle, more flights and sea is easy to get to from bfi

 

All of which is completely moot since he's moved on but in any event I highly anyone just shows up for a ppi without calling first.

[wombat]

You are correct that it's 50 miles different (328 to BFI but 373 to TTD).   The point I was trying to make was that at that total distance the difference isn't that much, it's a 12% increase.

I was looking for the list of MSCs on Mooney's site too and couldn't find it.  Great minds think alike.

That's a good point about catching a commercial flight from SeaTac being easier than Portland.

Galvin went through some ownership changes fairly quickly over the last few years.   They got bought by Quantem, then Signature, then Landmark (In some order that ended up with Landmark) but they ended up being the only FBO that the company owned that had a flight school.  So they were looking for a buyer or looking to shut the operation down.   A local DPE (Skip Moshner) ended up buying the flight school in 2015 and brought back the Galvin name and has been operating as a flight school only since then.   When I bought my Mooney in 2014 and mooney.com still had the list published Galvin was not listed as an MSC and even though the plane was at Paine (KPAE, only 22 miles away) I ended up taking it down to Troutdale for the inspection and I've taken my plane back there every year.

For what it's worth, Galvin has two Mooneys in their fleet that they use for commercial students and complex endorsements.   I instruct there part time and think they have a pretty good operation going.

[wcb]

Two things from me.  I have a 20c available here in Houston that I recently put on the market.  You can see the pictures here.  If you are set on a G there is one on Barnstormers from Conroe tx that a friend of mine knows intimately that says is a wonderful plane and very well maintained.

[wcb]

Forgot my C is also listed on barnstormer, trade a plane, and controller.  I have spent a lot of time and money making this plane mechanically right and would be willing to fly it anywhere.   Check out the newly wrapped yokes.  The yoke pictures are only on here and not in the adds.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

You are correct that it's 50 miles different (328 to BFI but 373 to TTD).   The point I was trying to make was that at that total distance the difference isn't that much, it's a 12% increase.

I was looking for the list of MSCs on Mooney's site too and couldn't find it.  Great minds think alike.

That's a good point about catching a commercial flight from SeaTac being easier than Portland.

Galvin went through some ownership changes fairly quickly over the last few years.   They got bought by Quantem, then Signature, then Landmark (In some order that ended up with Landmark) but they ended up being the only FBO that the company owned that had a flight school.  So they were looking for a buyer or looking to shut the operation down.   A local DPE (Skip Moshner) ended up buying the flight school in 2015 and brought back the Galvin name and has been operating as a flight school only since then.   When I bought my Mooney in 2014 and mooney.com still had the list published Galvin was not listed as an MSC and even though the plane was at Paine (KPAE, only 22 miles away) I ended up taking it down to Troutdale for the inspection and I've taken my plane back there every year.

For what it's worth, Galvin has two Mooneys in their fleet that they use for commercial students and complex endorsements.   I instruct there part time and think they have a pretty good operation going.

What is so hard about getting from KTTD to KPDX? The 84 freeway has an on ramp practically at the front gate of KTTD and goes right to KPDX. An easy UBER.

Edited May 28, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[peevee]

29 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What is so hard about getting from KTTD to KPDX? The 84 freeway has an on ramp practically at the front gate of KTTD and goes right to KPDX. An easy UBER.

Where did we say it was hard? We said it's easier to get from bfi to sea and there are 3 non-stop flights a day to gpi instead of one.

 

Again, all moot