Does a Mooney Fit my mission Profile?

[gsxrpilot]

I'll say it depends on the dog. I'd never put our dog in a crate or even strapped down. She's only 50 lbs, but perfectly well behaved even when she's scared or stressed.  Of course in our plane, she has the whole back seat to herself and has no cause to go anywhere else. She even wears her O2 mask when required.

[Guitarmaster]

What a depressing way to torch $60K. Souther AL could mean anywhere in the southern part of the state. How much additional driving on the arrival end? rental car? yuk! Similar to the few trips I've taken to St Simons GA:
It's a 715mile drive - Total time ~11.5 hours if you go straight through and there are no storms or traffic issues. 
Commercially it's a 1.2hr drive to KBWI + 10 mins to park + 20 mins for parking shuttle + 1hr of security and check in (minimum) + 2hrs and 20mins on a SWA flight to KJAX + 35mins for deplaning and baggage collection if checked (70lb dogs definitely get checked) + 15mins rental car counter (may require a shuttle or train or both a la KSFO) + 1hr and 25 mins to the beach house. Total time - 7hrs 17 mins
Via Mooney its 543NM so ~3hrs and 45mins with the Rental car or Uber I requested 3 miles out pulling on to the ramp to meet me at my plane + 10 mins to load and tie down + 10 minute drive to the beach house. Total time 4hrs and 5 mins
This exercise makes me painfully aware that doing the type of travel w do without a Mooney would be an exercise in frustration.  We also like to head up North to Camden ME in th summer. Doing that commercially would leave us a 2hr rental car drive after arriving in Portland. I could do the same exercise to several other regular destinations and the math almost always works in favor of Mooney air until the trip hits 1000NM.  I flew my wife to KPDK for a 1hr business meeting.  3.6 down and 3.4 back. It would have been a 12 to 14 hr day if not a long day and a wake up plus travel via the airlines.
Little airplanes can look almost practical if you value your time and sanity.
 
 

I have actually done the break-even calculations for taking the Mooney or taking SWA. I Fly SWA for free, so cost is a different story , however flying free comes at a cost of probably not getting on the airplane during the peak season.

I live 2 hours from Midway Airport. When traveling, I need to be at the airport at least an hour and a half prior. At least I do when I'm traveling with family. That makes three and a half hours of wasted time that could be spent going somewhere. For the most part, wherever we go on Southwest is about a two to two and a half hour flight. With all this information in mind, the number I pick is my break even point in terms of time, is 6 hours. Now, that's not counting a fuel stop about halfway through so the reality is closer to about five hours is the break-even travel time.
So there is the technical stuff. The non-quantifiable stuff pays off huge in the fact that I don't have to deal with Airline schedules, crowds, TSA. I actually feel like I have a weekend if I take the airplane somewhere!
Since whenever we need to get somewhere we end up buying tickets, the cost is actually about a break-even cost.
The only time that we kind of ran into problems is that the Mooney is not nearly as capable as a 737 and sometimes we have to wait for weather to pass.

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[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Please provide NTSB reports where dogs were a factor in an accident.

In addition to what Anthony stated, consider the consquences of 80lbs of meat and bone slamming into your back and neck in a sudden deceleration. Imagine the injury potential for the unsecured animal. Turbulance and lightning could spook the animal as well (I realize some breeds might be more prone than others).  A crate is the safest and most secure way for a dog to travel.

[thoma015]

70-80lb dogs should be is crates when in flight. Sorry, but its a safety precaution...plus they make my copilot nervous!

I agree dogs jumping in the back would not be ideal. If anything i'm pretty sure my young lab would be trying to get up front to put his head out the window.

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[ArtVandelay]

In addition to what Anthony stated, consider the consquences of 80lbs of meat and bone slamming into your back and neck in a sudden deceleration. Imagine the injury potential for the unsecured animal. Turbulance and lightning could spook the animal as well (I realize some breeds might be more prone than others).  A crate is the safest and most secure way for a dog to travel.

You can put a harness on them to control their movements, especially forward. T and L can spook humans too. Dogs generally behave the way they are trained, and act like they would in a car. If scared a dog look to hide, not freak out. Now once you've landed, better have a leash on it so it doesn't take off. I guess I have more faith in dogs, of course you are obviously a cat person.

[kortopates]

I've had and flown with 2 good sized labs over the years. Just never together. Labs are very mellow breeds and their disposition makes them great passengers. I wouldn't have dreamed about crating either one, but they have always been secured with a harness (not their neck) tied to a shoulder belt which kept them in the back seat and away from the front seat if we had an emergency landing. But a single lab takes up the entire back seat or it can't lay down which it really needs to do. I just don't think either the baby or a lab sized dog will be happy sharing the back seat together which means neither you and your wife will be either. However I have done my lab with an adult pax in the rear many times, but that takes a willing pax that doesn't mind the dog's head in the pax lap which is really the only way a 70+lb lab can lie down.

Before I was a Mooney owner I rented aircraft and had no problem with the dog. Just like with rental cars, we got a cover that would entirely cover the back seat to help control the dog hair. We'd still need something like sticky tape for the carpet. But planes weren't as bad as cars. Cars almost always had fabric seats that attract the hair while vinyl and leather is much more common on older aircraft rentals.  So it was really more of a car rental issue.

The C177RG does have a lot more room in the back but I don't know if I would want to carry a family lab in the cargo area either. I have a friend with a C177RG that used to carry around 2 huge Great Danes. She had the rear seats removed and it was no problem that way, but not manageable with the seats. But as you must be aware, the C177RG using the same engine as the Mooney J model is going about 40kts less than the Mooney, maybe a bit faster than the Arrow (I don't recall Arrow speeds that well).  

[Yetti]

It kind of sounds like you are in C182 territory.

[Guest]

A Piper Comanche 260 would work as well. You can remove one of the middle row seats to make extra room.  Good payload, fast, fuel injected, fuel bladders, and roomy.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

You can put a harness on them to control their movements, especially forward. T and L can spook humans too. Dogs generally behave the way they are trained, and act like they would in a car. If scared a dog look to hide, not freak out. Now once you've landed, better have a leash on it so it doesn't take off. I guess I have more faith in dogs, of course you are obviously a cat person.

I am fond of all animals (not a reptile person though in terms of pets). I've had several breeds of canines and enjoyed them all. I always seek out my dogs, the cats just seem to find us and move in...  My in laws are professional trainers and are active in Schutzhund community. I trust dogs as well; that's my 13 month old next to the new momma.

[Browncbr1]

Gosh dogs are expensive.  

[thoma015]

A Piper Comanche 260 would work as well. You can remove one of the middle row seats to make extra room.  Good payload, fast, fuel injected, fuel bladders, and roomy.
Clarence

I haven't thought about the Comanche yet...

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[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

 

I have actually done the break-even calculations for taking the Mooney or taking SWA. I Fly SWA for free, so cost is a different story , however flying free comes at a cost of probably not getting on the airplane during the peak season.

I live 2 hours from Midway Airport. When traveling, I need to be at the airport at least an hour and a half prior. At least I do when I'm traveling with family. That makes three and a half hours of wasted time that could be spent going somewhere. For the most part, wherever we go on Southwest is about a two to two and a half hour flight. With all this information in mind, the number I pick is my break even point in terms of time, is 6 hours. Now, that's not counting a fuel stop about halfway through so the reality is closer to about five hours is the break-even travel time.
So there is the technical stuff. The non-quantifiable stuff pays off huge in the fact that I don't have to deal with Airline schedules, crowds, TSA. I actually feel like I have a weekend if I take the airplane somewhere!
Since whenever we need to get somewhere we end up buying tickets, the cost is actually about a break-even cost.
The only time that we kind of ran into problems is that the Mooney is not nearly as capable as a 737 and sometimes we have to wait for weather to pass.

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The truth is weather capability is the elephant in the room.  For leisure trips we just except it and enjoy the ride.  I can do KHGR MD to KCOS CO in a long day.  It's a 1254NM trip, but I'd probably do it headwinds and all if the weather was decent. The delta between "Mooney Air" to The Springs and a direct flight to Denver then rental and drive is a few hours at best westbound, I could probably tie and maybe even beat the airlines eastbound.  

[TTaylor]

I think it could be done in an F.  Baby behind you, one dog on the other seat and one on the floor behind your wife.  You could also put one dog in the baggage area of an F but not much room for luggage that way.  I have trained my wife that when travelling to visit family you don't need to bring much, there are washing machines and stores where you are going.  We often travel with a 100 pound golden pyrenees about the size of a small horse , he takes up a large amount of room in the back seat.  Just plan not to get a second dog in the future.   The trip sounds like about a 5 hour total flight best done in two legs.

[jonhop]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I don't think there's enough cabin room for all five of you.  If you left the dogs at home, or reduced down to one dog, you'd be fine in the Mooney. You and the wife in the front seats will be comfortable. The baby will be in a car seat that will take half the back seat. That won't leave much room for one large dog, much less two. Of course the dogs could go in the cargo area, but it's limited to 120 lbs and then there's no room for luggage.

My wife and I travel around the country in our Mooney with one large dog and it works well. I'm not sure there's enough room for a car seat AND two large dogs in the back seat.

+ 1... Fly with my girlfriend and her 70lb Golden Doodle easily. Don't see how it would be possible to add a car seat and another 70+lb dog unless they are small and fat. Maybe a Cessna 210 would work. When my buddy gets done with his engine overhaul, he says he wants to race. He sold a C and a 182 to get into a 210.

[Hank]

1 minute ago, jonhop said:

+ 1... Fly with my girlfriend and her 70lb Golden Doodle easily. Don't see how it would be possible to add a car seat and another 70+lb dog unless they are small and fat. Maybe a Cessna 210 would work. When my buddy gets done with his engine overhaul, he says he wants to race. He sold a C and a 182 to get into a 210.

Race him from fuel pump to fuel pump. Both planes fill up, race to the destination and top off. That way you can beat him twice with a single flight!

[bonal]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

It kind of sounds like you are in C182 territory.

My thoughts exactly 

[kortopates]

 

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

It kind of sounds like you are in C182 territory.

 

Just now, bonal said:

My thoughts exactly 

I really don't think they'll fit any better in the 182 - not on the back seat anyway. 

[BKlott]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

Gosh dogs are expensive.  

The Vet bills alone could fund a bunch of flying activity.

[bonal]

Just now, kortopates said:

 

 

I really don't think they'll fit any better in the 182 - not on the back seat anyway. 

Definitely better than in a short body. I remember looking at a 175 that I shared the hangar with and it had way more room than my C

[Hector]

I like the Cherokee 6 260 suggestion for your mission requirements. Performs almost like a M20C on 50% more fuel while carrying 50% more weight with 50% more room. 

Hardly. My brother in law owns a 6 260 and I fly with him often. I have flown in the plane with him and formation with my C. I have to pull MP to 19-20 inches in my C in order for him to stay with me. 120 Kts is as fast as he can manage burning nearly twice as much gas. In the other hand he can carry a heck of a lot more than I. Last trip in his plane there were 4 of us and a LOT of luggage and 8500 was about as high as we could climb. BTW he has a newly factory reman engine. I don't know if his 260 is a dog or not but he does not spare expense in maintaining it. Last year we took my C to Oshkosh from North Florida and were there by early afternoon. This year we are taking the 260 and I have a feeling its going to take much longer. Back to the OP, the 260 may very well be a good choice if he insist on traveling with both dogs. Plenty of room.


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[glafaille]

Remember that traveling with a baby usually means a lot of other stuff like diaper bags and strollers.  Plus babies grow fast and where there is one there is often 2 or 3.  The odds of outgrowing a Mooney within a short period is high.  I think you need to seriously think about either 6 seats or flying without the dogs.

 

 

[glafaille]

8 minutes ago, Hector said:

 

Hardly. My brother in law owns a 6 260 and I fly with him often. I have flown in the plane with him and formation with my C. I have to pull MP to 19-20 inches in my C in order for him to stay with me. 120 Kts is as fast as he can manage burning nearly twice as much gas. In the other hand he can carry a heck of a lot more than I. Last trip in his plane there were 4 of us and a LOT of luggage and 8500 was about as high as we could climb. BTW he has a newly factory reman engine. I don't know if his 260 is a dog or not but he does not spare expense in maintaining it. Last year we took my C to Oshkosh from North Florida and were there by early afternoon. This year we are taking the 260 and I have a feeling its going to take much longer. Back to the OP, the 260 may very well be a good choice if he insist on traveling with both dogs. Plenty of room.


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I think your brother in law either has the power pulled WAY back or he left the anchor out.  The reports I see indicate cruise speeds of 135 to 140 knots true.  We are talking true airspeed and not indicated, right?

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/piper-cherokee-6

[Hector]

I think your brother in law either has the power pulled WAY back or he left the anchor out.  The reports I see indicate cruise speeds of 135 to 140 knots true.  We are talking true airspeed and not indicated, right?
https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/piper-cherokee-6

The only way his plane is going to reach 135-140 is on a dive. The reports are overly optimistic and I've heard that from other 260 owners as well. I can easily pull away from him in my C. We took off together from Central Florida and I arrived in Miami, refueled at the self serve, tied down the plane and put the cover on it, paid the fuel bill, and still waited a few minutes before he arrived.


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[glafaille]

I guess the only way to know for sure is to go fly one.  

It's surprising how many folks don't have a clue how fast their airplane is, or how to fly it for best performance.  Some guys remove wheel pants to make life easier and don't care about speed, some want to save gas and pull the power back, some fly planes that are way out of rig, some guys put a climb prop on their plane and then wonder why it flies slower. 

Typical answers when I ask owners how fast their airplane flies:  "It depends which way the wind is blowing, sometimes it goes 120 knots and sometimes 160", or "It usually says about 130 on the GPS", or "I usually see 120 on the gauge".

Indeed the guy I bought my plane from told me it goes 125 knots, seemed strange as most reports I read reported 135 knots or better cruise.  I bought the plane, fly it by the book and I get 135 knots to 140 knots true at the optimum altitude.

I'm not saying that you or your brother in law, do or say any of these things, just that it might be fun to see if you can get your brother in law's plane to fly faster or figure out why it's so slow.  Maybe a climb prop or flying at the wrong altitude or RPM if it's fixed pitch (could be fixed or constant speed).  

Maybe that's just the way it is and you are right and all the reports are wrong.  I don't know, I've never flown one myself.  Just going by what I've read and heard from others that own them.

Might be worth some research on the Piper forums.

http://www.piperforum.com/showthread.php?t=4541

Seems like several here are of the opinion the OP will be pretty cramped in the Mooney with his expected load.

 

[Shadrach]

I don't think the C182 cabin is appreciably larger than an F model. The greenhouse and the door might make it feel that way, but in terms of cubic feet, the difference is marginal though I'll concede the baggage compartment is longer.  Useful load is a crap shoot depending on year and equipment. Nice Birds, but their performance and load carrying capacity for often falls short of the hype.