Foreflight Legal for IFR Navigation?

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

unless it's on the shutdown list (which we don't see),

You can see the shutdown and retention lists here. The links are in the upper right of the page, under "Current Status."

Keep in mind there are two separate programs. One is MON to reduce the number of VORs. The other is the removal of what the FAA feels are little used and redundant VOR and NDB approaches. For example, in my area, LIB VOR is part of the MON but all the approaches using it, except one, are gone. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Last time I checked (last week) there were still VOR stations all over the place. And they still work!

Very true and on cross countries I always keep at least one tuned in, but if you're direct to an intersection it's nice to have the tablet to help, uninterrupted, while you get everything set up.

[N201MKTurbo]

13 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Very true and on cross countries I always keep at least one tuned in, but if you're direct to an intersection it's nice to have the tablet to help, uninterrupted, while you get everything set up.

Oh, I've been spoiled by the iPad for the last 10 years. The discussion was turning to what happens when all your fancy GPS boxes stop working and hinting that the GPS system went down for some reason. 

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Exactly!

Having the cellular version of the iPad gives you other satellite constellations, and since you're using it for a back-up, why not have a back-up for the satellites as well. People debate about this all the time about whether or not they really need the cellular version. They say, "how often does that really happen?". Once is often enough. For the extra $100-150, considering you get at least half of that difference back when you sell it down the road, IMHO the decision is easy. Even if the iPad is linked to a portable ads-b/gps I still want the GPS chip on the iPad.

Having cellular capability in itself does not provide any additional satellite constellations, or any significant additional navigational capability.     If GPS goes down you may still be able to get other satellite navigation from GLONASS or Galileleo or Beidou or whatever else might still be operating if you have a receiver for it, which is independent of any cellular capability.   The little $35 GPS USB receivers that I buy for my stratux often also have GLONASS and Galileo capability, and it's possible that the iPad in question also had one.

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

If GPS goes down you may still be able to get other satellite navigation from GLONASS or Galileleo or Beidou or whatever else might still be operating if you have a receiver for it, which is independent of any cellular capability. 

How does GPS “go down?” Do a bunch of satellites fall out of the sky. The times I’ve lost GPS have been due to interference and then even my iPhone and cellular iPad lose position information. Have you been in situation where you lost GPS but still are able to get a fix using one of the other systems?

Maybe I should get a LORAN as a backup.

https://www.xyht.com/gnsslocation-tech/the-return-of-loran/

[EricJ]

39 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

How does GPS “go down?” Do a bunch of satellites fall out of the sky.

There are many ways, interference being one as you mention, but intentional disruption or disablement is also a possibility, i.e., it gets turned off.    This is why it is sometimes known ahead of time and NOTAMed, it is an intentional disruption or it can be intentionally disabled by the operators.   During a conflict we're not likely to have the benefit of NOTAMs.

BTW, the people who can disable or turn off GPS don't have the capability to do that with GLONASS or Galileo or Beidu, so when GPS areas get disrupted, the others will likely still be working.

39 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

The times I’ve lost GPS have been due to interference and then even my iPhone and cellular iPad lose position information. Have you been in situation where you lost GPS but still are able to get a fix using one of the other systems?

I have not personally, but I was responding to an example of that given by somebody else.

39 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Maybe I should get a LORAN as a backup.

https://www.xyht.com/gnsslocation-tech/the-return-of-loran/

There's a much easier way, in that it is not that difficult to triangulate off of multiple VORs simultaneously using a single wideband receiver, like the USB dongles that are used in a stratux.    Scan the VHF VOR frequencies, find what's there, identify them, determine the radials, and you have a reasonably good estimate of where you are.   It's not even that tough to determine your LAT/LON if you have a table of the coordinates of the VOR stations.    This has already been done, it's just not gotten a lot of attention.   Could do it on your EFB.    I suspect this will get deployed at some point, as there are zero technical barriers to doing this economically.

[larryb]

In the iPad world, GPS and cellular go together. You don't get a GPS chip if you don't buy the cellular connectivity option. 

In the case where I lost panel mount GPS and the iPad kept working I don't really know why. Perhaps it used a different constellation, but it doesn't tell you what it's using. Perhaps it has a better GPS receiver.  I didn't check my phone.

[RobertGary1]

On 3/1/2017 at 5:46 PM, kortopates said:

Nothing could be further from the truth!

You need a TSO's GPS navigator to navigate IFR within the NAS period. If I recall correctly its TSO C129 for non-waas supplemental nav and TSO C145 or C146 for WAAS sole source navigation. Even experimental aircraft have to be install such devices to fly IFR. Tell him to call his local FSDO or ask anyone on his local FAASTeam group.

he owes you lunch

For approaches. It’s 100% legal to navigate enroute ifr with a sextant, or a ham sandwich. 

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

Having cellular capability in itself does not provide any additional satellite constellations, or any significant additional navigational capability.     If GPS goes down you may still be able to get other satellite navigation from GLONASS or Galileleo or Beidou or whatever else might still be operating if you have a receiver for it, which is independent of any cellular capability.   The little $35 GPS USB receivers that I buy for my stratux often also have GLONASS and Galileo capability, and it's possible that the iPad in question also had one.

 

 

The GPS chipset used in the cellular iPad includes GLONASS, Galileo, QZSS, and BeiDo.

[Fly Boomer]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:24 PM, LANCECASPER said:

The GPS chipset used in the cellular iPad includes GLONASS, Galileo, QZSS, and BeiDo.

I found some crowd-sourced opinions on this, but couldn't find any real documentation.  Can you cite a source?  Thanks.

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, Fly Boomer said:

I found some crowd-sourced opinions on this, but couldn't find any real documentation.  Can you cite a source?  Thanks.

Apple.

They use the same chipset in their cellular phones as they do the cellular iPads. Look under "location" on this link: https://www.apple.com/iphone-14/specs/

[Fly Boomer]

21 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Apple.

They use the same chipset in their cellular phones as they do the cellular iPads. Look under "location" on this link: https://www.apple.com/iphone-14/specs/

Mini 6 tech spec says "GPS/GNSS".  No mention of other countries' GNSS systems.  I may have to get an iPhone.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Mini 6 tech spec says "GPS/GNSS".  No mention of other countries' GNSS systems.  I may have to get an iPhone.

You're covered with your Mini 6 if it has the cellular option. GNSS is just short way of saying "all of the other Global Navigation Satellite Systems"

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gnss/#:~:text=Global navigation satellite system (GNSS,a global or regional basis.

[Fly Boomer]

34 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

You're covered with your Mini 6 if it has the cellular option. GNSS is just short way of saying "all of the other Global Navigation Satellite Systems"

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gnss/#:~:text=Global navigation satellite system (GNSS,a global or regional basis.

Politely disagree.  Your own source says "Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) is a general term describing any satellite constellation that provides positioning, navigation, and timing (PNT) services on a global or regional basis."  Emphasis is mine.  GNSS does not imply all global navigation satellite systems.  The US version of GNSS is GPS.  The Russian version of GNSS is GLONASS. And so on.

[LANCECASPER]

Why do I get lured into these endless debates?  Have a great day.

[MikeOH]

On 5/17/2023 at 1:16 PM, RobertGary1 said:

For approaches. It’s 100% legal to navigate enroute ifr with a sextant, or a ham sandwich. 

Just make sure you have TWO ham sandwiches...In case you eat one of them

[Hank]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Just make sure you have TWO ham sandwiches...In case you eat one of them

Eat today's sandwich, navigate with yesterday's leftovers.

[Fly Boomer]

18 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

You're covered with your Mini 6 if it has the cellular option. GNSS is just short way of saying "all of the other Global Navigation Satellite Systems"

https://www.gps.gov/systems/gnss/#:~:text=Global navigation satellite system (GNSS,a global or regional basis.

I have spent way too much time on this, but here is what I found.

Apple doesn't specify what GNSS systems it supports in the iPad Mini 6.  Specifications on older versions of the iPad Mini said what GNSS systems were supported, but for the Mini 6 they somewhat cryptically say only "GPS/GNSS):

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP850?locale=en_US

Without citing their source, DesignReviews.com says the iPad Mini 4 (released 9 Sep 2015) supports two GNSS systems (assisted GPS and GLONASS), while the iPad Mini 6 (released 14 Sep 2021) supports three GNSS systems (assisted GPS, GLONASS, and GALILEO):

https://designreviews.com/ipad-mini-6-vs-ipad-mini-4/

So it appears that if you have a Mini 4 or Mini 6, and if GPS is down or otherwise unavailable, you should have at least GLONASS to fall back on.  It's not clear why Apple is not more forthcoming.

[rbp]

from: https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_ipad_mini_(2021)-11105.php

"GPS, GLONASS (Wi‑Fi + Cellular model only)"

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

from: https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_ipad_mini_(2021)-11105.php

"GPS, GLONASS (Wi‑Fi + Cellular model only)"

I saw that one.  Couldn’t find anything definitive from Apple.

[PeteMc]

Dare I read any of these posts without the fear of throwing things at my monitor or actually posting something like "are you really that stupid?"  

I did see the Sextant and Ham Sandwich comment that was requoted here at the end.  Guess that would be true for the few approaches that do have a Visual component at the end. 

And aside from the obvious humor in all this, I hope no one actually thinks you can use an iPad (FF, G Pilot, WingX, etc., etc.) as anything more than an Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) for charts, plates and other formerly paper information.  And, of course, a simple way to display ADS-B, TIS-B and FIS-B info.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

On 3/1/2017 at 6:46 PM, kortopates said:

Nothing could be further from the truth!

You need a TSO's GPS navigator to navigate IFR within the NAS period. If I recall correctly its TSO C129 for non-waas supplemental nav and TSO C145 or C146 for WAAS sole source navigation. Even experimental aircraft have to be install such devices to fly IFR. Tell him to call his local FSDO or ask anyone on his local FAASTeam group.

he owes you lunch

Did I miss something? Is /A illegal these days? Can’t you fly IFR and fly precision approaches legally with just a KX-170 with a GS receiver?

[N201MKTurbo]

I was reading up on this and it seems that the required VOR checks are still required. 
 

How many of you still do them with your fancy navigators?

[McMooney]

I did it yesterday, gns480 vs kx170b  25miles@1230 to TNV  results +- 0.  woot i wrote it down, guess tha tmakes it legal

[RobertGary1]

4 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Dare I read any of these posts without the fear of throwing things at my monitor or actually posting something like "are you really that stupid?"  

I did see the Sextant and Ham Sandwich comment that was requoted here at the end.  Guess that would be true for the few approaches that do have a Visual component at the end. 

And aside from the obvious humor in all this, I hope no one actually thinks you can use an iPad (FF, G Pilot, WingX, etc., etc.) as anything more than an Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) for charts, plates and other formerly paper information.  And, of course, a simple way to display ADS-B, TIS-B and FIS-B info.

 

Are you referring to enroute or approach?. Yes a sextant is 100% legal for enroute ifr navigation.