Hello??? Is this forum working??

[ArtVandelay]

haven't found any decent J's for 60.  I AM looking for either a C, E or F, trying to find a way to make a J work.  Yes, I am ready to pull the trigger.  I am not in a RUSH to pull the trigger.  RIght plane, and right plane only. 

You can't make a J work, a 60K J will require 20K of maintenance.

No matter what, save 10K for unexpected expenses and possibly an upgrade.

[eman1200]

Just now, teejayevans said:

You can't make a J work, a 60K J will require 20K of maintenance.

and how much will and 80k J need?

[KLRDMD]

47 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

and how much will and 80k J need?

I know a guy that just had an offer accepted for a K model, he's paying well under $80k and the airplane is well equipped with good times. Any airplane requires the ready availability of $10,000.

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Just don't be a tire kicker. No one likes tire kickers.

If he's been looking for two years and hasn't found what he wants he either is a tire kicker or has unrealistic expectations. One of the guys I'm advising that just had the offer accepted on a K model first contacted me on January 4. On January 4 he had no idea what he wanted so we started with "what's your mission" followed by "what's your budget". On February 20 he had an offer accepted. It doesn't take two years to find a Mooney.

[eman1200]

with no disrespect I really don't care if my timeline meets your expectations.  my  money, I buy when I'm good and ready.  I haven't led a single person on about potentially buying their plane.

[bradp]

Shoot for a CEF- you'll get 90% of what the J does (maybe more useful load than a Later J in an F), and get a nicer model in your price range. For low end of the model, plan to spend 20% of the asking price on squawks over 1 year. For a higher end of the same model, you might spend 20% of the asking price over two years but this is more likely to be split between addressing squawks and performing upgrades.


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[ArtVandelay]

My first year, after a good PPI, I had to repair, overhauled:
Muffler
Gear actuator
Gear donuts
Magnetos and spark plugs
Main tire
Battery
Flap switch
All fluid hoses

2nd-3rd years:
AI
Starter
Voltage regulator
Nose tire
Magnetos again after 350 hours
Another main tire
And on my 3rd year anniversary, boost pump.

Then there was the upgrades:
650, 255, 830, 74, 88, 210 (avionics buffs will recognize these numbers)
New interior
LEDs all around except recognition lights which I wigwaged
Removed ram air

Oh yea, my engine has 1980 hours on it...

[Marauder]

My first year, after a good PPI, I had to repair, overhauled:
Muffler
Gear actuator
Gear donuts
Magnetos and spark plugs
Main tire
Battery
Flap switch
All fluid hoses

2nd-3rd years:
AI
Starter
Voltage regulator
Nose tire
Magnetos again after 350 hours
Another main tire
And on my 3rd year anniversary, boost pump.

Then there was the upgrades:
650, 255, 830, 74, 88, 210 (avionics buffs will recognize these numbers)
New interior
LEDs all around except recognition lights which I wigwaged
Removed ram air

Oh yea, my engine has 1980 hours on it...

If I told you how much money I spent in 26 years of owning my Mooney I'd be answering this thread from my Island retreat in the Bahamas instead of a traffic jam in Delaware


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[xcrmckenna]

I'll fix your problem. You can buy my F for $150,000.  You would look great with the warm glow of the non-Swiss watch glow of a glass panel.  
 

$150,000???? Dang I knew I should jumped on it when you offered it for $86,000 the other day in a thread....


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[Skates97]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

If he's been looking for two years and hasn't found what he wants he either is a tire kicker or has unrealistic expectations. One of the guys I'm advising that just had the offer accepted on a K model first contacted me on January 4. On January 4 he had no idea what he wanted so we started with "what's your mission" followed by "what's your budget". On February 20 he had an offer accepted. It doesn't take two years to find a Mooney.

I knew what I was looking for and had been looking at the market for about 6 months. When I was ready to buy one person I reached out to was Ken for some advice on different planes. I appreciated all the input he gave me, some things I hadn't considered or thought of. That was the end of October, a couple weeks later I had an offer accepted on one of the planes. I agree it doesn't take that long to find a plane, just have realistic expectations of what you are looking for and know that there are going to be compromises made. Have a list of "must haves" and "nice to haves", and be willing to let go of some of the "nice to haves."

[mooniac15u]

56 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

with no disrespect I really don't care if my timeline meets your expectations.  my  money, I buy when I'm good and ready.  I haven't led a single person on about potentially buying their plane.

I think that's all anybody has been saying here.  It doesn't seem like you are "good and ready" to buy.  That's ok.  We are just trying to help you understand the market.  In the two years you have been looking there have been Mooneys listed for sale that represent pretty much the whole range of what you can expect.  There are no unicorns and no pristine barn finds out there.  If you want a nice Mooney you will have to either buy one at the high end of the range or buy one that needs work and make it nice.  There are plenty out there with good bones that you can turn into what you want.  Either way we're talking about 30-50 year old machines.

Remember, you started this thread...

[TonyK]

8 hours ago, charheep said:

I know a decent M20F that is for sale near El Paso.  Priced a little high, but everything so far has come back extremely clean.  I may have to pass on it, but I haven't killed the deal yet.

 

I think the owner pulled the ad, so here is some quick specs.  Located in Alamogordo, NM

Listed at $49,900

1968 M20F   3510N

Contact Russ Burkhard 210-383-8342

I looked at that airplane and was actually going between that one and another until I heard it was off the market.  The logs looked pretty good and I though it was reasonable $.  I ended up going with another but it looked like a okay deal.

[gsxrpilot]

It's actually not all that difficult to find nearly every Mooney of a given type, that is for sale in the US.  Both times I was a buyer, I made a quick spreadsheet listing every one of them.  The last time, searching for a 252, my spreadsheet listed every single 252 for sale, along with features/condition in descending order of importance for me.  It wasn't a long list, but long enough get a good handle on asking prices, and available features and conditions. It will also reveal if you can afford the model you're looking for. For example, I flirted with the idea of owning a Bravo, but decided while I could afford the CapEx, I might struggle with the OpEx. I was also briefly dazzled by a 252 with a beautiful interior and paint, but it only had a KAP rather than KFC autopilot and no Alt pre-select. With cash in my pocket, I went to look at two of the planes and made a deal for one of them.

Certainly feel free to take all the time you need/want to find the right plane. I think we were all just a bit thrown off by the title of your thread here. 

[Lowbid]

 

Narco CP136 TSO audio panel.

[KLRDMD]

21 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I knew what I was looking for and had been looking at the market for about 6 months. When I was ready to buy one person I reached out to was Ken for some advice on different planes. I appreciated all the input he gave me, some things I hadn't considered or thought of. That was the end of October, a couple weeks later I had an offer accepted on one of the planes. I agree it doesn't take that long to find a plane, just have realistic expectations of what you are looking for and know that there are going to be compromises made. Have a list of "must haves" and "nice to haves", and be willing to let go of some of the "nice to haves."

Glad to help any Mooney Space member that's looking for an airplane. Just PM me and we can discuss it.

[glafaille]

Eman-

Don't be bothered by those that claim that there are plenty of planes out there.  Those that claim that it's easy to find a plane are usually not hamstrung by a budget, have low expectations, are more trusting than the rest, or just plain lucky.  It pays to be at the right place at the right time, too bad we can't arrange to make that happen when we want.  

Indeed there are a lot of planes for sale, unfortunately, most of them have issues.  Sometimes it's an oddball owner who doesn't really want to sell his plane or hasn't a clue what he owns, how it's been maintained, or what it's worth.  But usually it's missing logbooks, shotgun panels, 30 year old overhauls, corrosion, fuel leaks, 360 channel nav/coms, stupid high pricing, and the list goes on.  These are old, old planes and most have been subject to neglect, abuse, and poor maintenance for some if not most of their life.  It's almost impossible to find a 50 year old plane without any warts for $40,000.  You may have to look for a very long time or compromise.

Many times a plane pops up and it's located in the middle of nowhere, difficult to access, and an elderly owner without a clue how to email out copies of the logbooks.  Much time and treasure can be spent chasing a pig in a poke.  Airplane shopping would be so much easier if only you had a plane! 

I feel your pain.  I looked HARD for a C model Mooney for 6 months, my budget was $50,000.   I finally gave up and finally found something else good enough in my neighborhood.  I'm still watching for a nice C or E model myself, but it has to be very close to what I want, even closer to where I live, and at a price very close to what I want to pay.  In the meantime, I have something to fly that is nearly as fast as a stock C model, and I'm now ready to fly anywhere to look at the perfect "C".

Stick to your guns, it's your money.

 

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, glafaille said:

It's almost impossible to find a 50 year old plane without any warts for $40,000.  You may have to look for a very long time or compromise.

And herein lies the problem. It's not "almost impossible", they don't actually exist. There is no such thing as a 50 year old airplane without warts. So it's not "compromise", its reality.

As long as you're looking for the perfect 50 year old plane, enjoy the search, because that's as far as you'll ever get.  But if you want to own and fly, then you have to accept the reality of the market. And once you do, you'll quickly join the ranks of Mooney owners.

My first C, for which I paid $48K and later sold for $50K, was missing all logs before 1987. Had been through 3 gear up landings, had a flaw in the windshield on the right side, and had some minor hail damage. But none of that affected the way it flew, it's safety, nor evidently, it's resale value. Everyone who ever saw it or flew it it was envious of my C. I certainly didn't compromise, but rather bought the best C available on the market, for a very fair price. The asking by the way, was $57K.

There are no "barn finds" in this market...

[glafaille]

All of us have a different tolerance for old airplane warts.  Personally I would not consider any aircraft without complete logs, nor would I buy an aircraft with obvious signs of overstress or multiple corrosion events.  I will tolerate minor hail damage, gear up landings, shotgun panels and ancient engine overhauls if the price is adjusted to reflect the flaws.  

And there lies the problem in a nutshell.  Each of us has to put a price on the value or discount to the value of an aircraft with a variety of flaws.  We each valus such things differently.  As a buyer, the only way to REALLY feel comfortable with a big purchase of a 50 year old airplane, with known flaws, is to actually go out and look at lots of similar planes to get a feel for what the market has to offer and at what price.

The reality is that many people that want to buy an older aircraft may never find one with a set of attributes and flaws that are acceptable to them at a price they are willing to pay.  A big part of what allows some to accept the risks of old airplanes, is emotion.  A heightened desire to own a Mooney will often push us over the hump of all the flaws.  In my case my desire to own an aircraft was greater than my desire to own only a Mooney, so I ended up with something else.  I would still like to buy a Mooney, but now that my airplane "want" is satisfied, I am in no hurry to change planes unless the RIGHT deal comes along.

 

[KLRDMD]

Just now, glafaille said:

In my case my desire to own an aircraft was greater than my desire to own only a Mooney, so I ended up with something else. 

You buy a mission, not a brand. You may prefer a brand but the fact is, in almost every case there are 4-5, maybe more different airplanes that will meet the need of a specific mission.

[glafaille]

In my case I was VERY MUCH in touch with the market during the 6 months I was actively looking.  I knew EVERYTHING there was to know about every Mooney that remotely fit my needs.  Each researched airplane represented about 6 to 8 hours each of research of logbooks, ADs, and SBs.  Plus each plane was evaluated on three different websites for estimated value, then my own estimate of work to be done to each airplane to make it RIGHT for my needs was applied.  ONLY if an aircraft passed this "smell test" AND if the asking price was reasonable, did I decide to travel to actually look at the aircraft in person.  All the C models that passed the initial test, that I then visited had major defects not disclosed by the seller that resulted in a spoiled sale.

I was not able to visit airplanes more than 500 miles from my home as my job didn't allow extended travel at the time.  However, if I owned an airplane I could have cast a wider net.  It's expensive to travel to look at airplanes and ultimately I was hamstrug by time and finances to effectively search nation wide.

The most valuable resource in an aircraft hunt are the friends here on Mooneyspace.  Most of us are happy to assist buyers in the process by looking at planes before you commit to travel,  talking to people in the area that might know the aircraft, or providing other logistical support.  In the end though, it all comes down to taking a chance in one way or another.

[Guitarmaster]

Four of the five airplanes I have purchased were more than 500 NM away. I have even purchased high end used cars sight unseen from farther way than that. Perhaps that is where you went wrong?
Regardless.  Enjoy your Tiger.  Dating back to the 70s as a child when they were new, I have always been intrigued by them.
Jim
 

I looked at tigers for a while. It's a fun airplane to fly and a simple airplane so that makes maintenance reasonably inexpensive. The problem I ran into, is that most tiger owners seem to think they're airplane is worth more than it really is. Or rather, what the bank thinks it is worth.



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[xcrmckenna]

And herein lies the problem. It's not "almost impossible", they don't actually exist. There is no such thing as a 50 year old airplane without warts. So it's not "compromise", its reality.
As long as you're looking for the perfect 50 year old plane, enjoy the search, because that's as far as you'll ever get.  But if you want to own and fly, then you have to accept the reality of the market. And once you do, you'll quickly join the ranks of Mooney owners.
My first C, for which I paid $48K and later sold for $50K, was missing all logs before 1987. Had been through 3 gear up landings, had a flaw in the windshield on the right side, and had some minor hail damage. But none of that affected the way it flew, it's safety, nor evidently, it's resale value. Everyone who ever saw it or flew it it was envious of my C. I certainly didn't compromise, but rather bought the best C available on the market, for a very fair price. The asking by the way, was $57K.
There are no "barn finds" in this market...

So if the asking price was $57,000 why didn't you pay that? It sounds like it was worth it if non of the problems effect the way it flew, but maybe you were looking for a deal or a discount. What about planes that do have problems that effected the way it flys then shouldn't the buyer get an even more discount on price? but the sellers more often than not don't have realistic views of their planes and wouldn't drop the sale price enough to make it reasonable to purchase. I'm not scared of a project, or of a plane that isn't a 10 in all aspects. But why should I be dumb throwing away good money on a bad plane. If you want to take the time and sit down with me and have a beer I will gladly take you through the last 2.5 years of planes I've looked at and all the money I have spent on prebuys, and trips across the states. Prebuys at Don Maxwell. But I wouldnt trade it for buying a terrible plane that was a money pit. Your comment in the rule of thumb thread was flawed as well. You said if you can't afford the most expensive plane in that model you shouldn't buy it. Well I've been looking for a J model and the useful load I want fits in the 77'-82'. And no matter what anyone says a 77' will never have the resale value of a 97'' but doesn't mean there are not solid wonderful 77' 201's out there. And touchy subject I'm sure but did buying the most expensive 252 save you from having major issues? Spending the most money doesn't make the plane a good value. If someone wants to keep their requirements for their mission then so be it, I know I have.

People complain about tire kickers, well I think the sellers trying to sell a pile or not having a reasonable view of their plane is FAR worse.

I just put a deposit on a 201 with AAA today and have a prebuy scheduled with Dugosh. The 2.5 years looking has made it well worth it. And Jimmy and David not selling junk has made it all the better.


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[glafaille]

"Barn Finds" do indeed happen, if by the term you mean a killer deal, under market, or "being at the right place at the right time".  

I think we all know of someone who just happened into an awesome deal, sometimes when they weren't even looking for an airplane.  I know of several people that just happened into a deal where they bought the plane well below market.  Brokers do it all the time.  But you must know a great deal when you see it, have CASH in hand, be willing to buy without benefit of a "Maxwell" pre-buy, have a trusted mechanic willing to travel, and you must be intimate with the market every minute of every day.  Most of all you must be willing to take a chance.

Some buyers are patient and don't mind waiting for the perfect deal, which may never come,  or worse, the airplane they looked at last week was the perfect deal, but they hesitated and missed out. 

In my case the perfect deal usually comes along just after I bought something that was just good enough.  This time I'm ready, I have a cash reserve to buy the perfect Mooney if I see it. 

 

[mike_elliott]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 2:08 PM, eman1200 said:

and how much will and 80k J need?

Yesterday, I had the pleasure of transitioning a Southwest Captain in his new to him 84 J that he got for 85K. This plane was beautiful inside and out, good avionics, everything worked, flew wonderfully.  He told me the seller had 4 offers for MORE than the 85K he contracted with after he made the deal. The real takeaway is to "prebuy" the owner and his philosophy of aircraft maintenance with as much scrutiny as you do the plane if you want to avoid really nasty surprises. Get your $$ in order and be ready to fly to BFE on a moments notice to check out a plane and owner, and take the plunge if your expectations are met.

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

The real takeaway is to "prebuy" the owner and his philosophy of aircraft maintenance with as much scrutiny as you do the plane if you want to avoid really nasty surprises. Get your $$ in order and be ready to fly to BFE on a moments notice to check out a plane and owner, and take the plunge if your expectations are met.

Both excellent recommendations.