To IFR or Not IFR - that is the question.

[kmyfm20s]

As I suppected they where in the wrong orientation. Thanks for fixing them. Cheeseburgers on me for the big ladies! But not literally on me:)

[Wildhorsesracing]

On 2/1/2017 at 7:54 AM, Ftlausa said:

Instrument trained pilots have learned more precise control of the aircraft and better situational awareness of aircraft instrumentation.  Full stop.  Instrument trained pilots have learned how to survive flight into IMC.  Full stop.  Instrument trained pilots can get to the ground safely if the weather unexpectedly deteriorates.  Full stop.

All of those skills increase the safety of flight for you and your passengers.  My and my family's safety were worth every hour and every dollar I spent on the instrument rating.  Full stop.   

That's good info, and I almost believe you....

IFR Rated Pilot and Passenger killed

FWIW - I believe an IFR rating is worth it if I was younger and planning to fly for my previous businesses.  I rely on IFR rated pilots in jumbo jets to get me anywhere I want (when they aren't delayed by weather ).  My primary question was it worth the cost for some like me, 55 yrs old, retired with plenty of time to fly and willing to jump on an airline if I ever get a case of "get-there-itis".  And statistics clearly show that many pilots who were IFR rated let is lapse and think that they can still do it only to find that mother nature always wins.  It's a risk I don't want to endure or put my family thru, so in essence I don't want to be one of those statistics.

[gsxrpilot]

That's a terrible story, and on a volunteer medical mission as well. I participate with Angel Flight here in Texas, and like to think I'm more careful with those passengers than anyone.

Isn't there the potential for abuse or careless attitude towards anything we do? The same could be said for a Private Pilot, or even a Drivers License. I'm sure my chances of being killed in a car would be greatly reduced if I never had a drivers license and just took the bus everywhere with professional drivers. And so likewise, getting an Instrument rating doesn't assume that you'll ever use it to shoot an approach to minimums, or even ever fly IMC. But getting the IA rating certainly involves some quality instruction and the acquisition of addition of some quite useful skills. 

I'm envious of you retired at 55 with time and means to do what you like. If I was in that situation, I'd pursue the Instrument rating just because I could. 

[Marauder]

That's good info, and I almost believe you....
IFR Rated Pilot and Passenger killed
FWIW - I believe an IFR rating is worth it if I was younger and planning to fly for my previous businesses.  I rely on IFR rated pilots in jumbo jets to get me anywhere I want (when they aren't delayed by weather ).  My primary question was it worth the cost for some like me, 55 yrs old, retired with plenty of time to fly and willing to jump on an airline if I ever get a case of "get-there-itis".  And statistics clearly show that many pilots who were IFR rated let is lapse and think that they can still do it only to find that mother nature always wins.  It's a risk I don't want to endure or put my family thru, so in essence I don't want to be one of those statistics.

It's like every other skill. Let it get rusty and in this case, it can kill you. For me, since I train often and do IPCs whether I need one or not, I think I have maintained the currency, competence and confidence to use it. The unfortunate part is that there are a number of current and confident IFR pilots who just aren't competent.

If you don't have plans on using the rating, don't get it. I no longer fly hard IFR but sure do enjoy the ability to get out of dodge when the only thing I need to do is fly through a 1000' ceiling to get up on top and to VFR conditions at my destination.




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[Ftlausa]

2 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

That's good info, and I almost believe you....

IFR Rated Pilot and Passenger killed

FWIW - I believe an IFR rating is worth it if I was younger and planning to fly for my previous businesses.  I rely on IFR rated pilots in jumbo jets to get me anywhere I want (when they aren't delayed by weather ).  My primary question was it worth the cost for some like me, 55 yrs old, retired with plenty of time to fly and willing to jump on an airline if I ever get a case of "get-there-itis".  And statistics clearly show that many pilots who were IFR rated let is lapse and think that they can still do it only to find that mother nature always wins.  It's a risk I don't want to endure or put my family thru, so in essence I don't want to be one of those statistics.

Based upon this comment, I agree that you should not get an instrument rating and that you should remain a strictly VFR pilot.  If you got an IR, you would not maintain the proficiency necessary.  Nothing inherently wrong with being a VFR only pilot -- as along as you stay within your limitations.   

[bonal]

1 hour ago, Ftlausa said:

Based upon this comment, I agree that you should not get an instrument rating and that you should remain a strictly VFR pilot.  If you got an IR, you would not maintain the proficiency necessary.  Nothing inherently wrong with being a VFR only pilot -- as along as you stay within your limitations.   

And there is nothing wrong with being an IFR pilot as long as you do the same

[DanM20C]

My accident was very unique, but being on an IFR flight plan helped with the outcome.  I filled for the ease and added safety, the weather was sever clear for the entire route.  After I went unconscious I stopped responding to departure and didn't fly my filed route.  This prompted ATC to take action.  They did everything to could to reach me including sending up two F-16's.  When they failed to contact me they arranged search and rescue before I crashed.  The Helicopter that airlifted me took off before my airplane hit the ground.  All because I was IFR.  I asked several controllers since the accident if that would have happened if I were VFR with flight flowing.  They all said "probably not".  

Beyond the obvious safety benefits, flying IFR is fun and rewarding.  It adds a lot of utility to your airplane.  I found that in real world it was actually hard for me to find low IFR conditions.  This is probably a function of my flight planing as I rarely flew into deteriorating conditions.  More often that not I would be excited to be 40mn out and have 600ft ceilings at my destination. Then be disappointed when they lifted to 2000ft by the time I fly the approach.   

I was surprised to see Maruader's hula girl.. 

I thought he would have this one.

[carusoam]

Summary:  do it because you can.

Train like you need it...

Plan like you don't have it...

with the tools in your bag, you will be better prepared for what ever comes up.

 

Take a compromise...

Do some IFR training.  It can be fun and rewarding.

 

If you are up for a challenge...

Training for the IR can be a real cognitive and physical challenge. Unlike work, you can hit the suspend button and come back to it when you feel like it.  

 

There is a downside...

A) it costs time and money that can be better spent doing something more important.

 if A) is important to you, an IR is helpful for Pals and PnP type flights....

Best regards,

-a-

Dan,  your experience gets more interesting with the depth of all your details!

Edited March 7, 2017 by carusoam

[gsengle]

Imho a lapsed instrument rated pilot is in a far better situation to deal with inadvertent IMC than one that never got the rating. If can't hurt. Well the training can be painful tho!


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[bonal]

1 hour ago, DanM20C said:

My accident was very unique, but being on an IFR flight plan helped with the outcome

Dan lets just accept that it just wasnt your time I really like the F16 part too bad you missed it taking a nap and all.

[Marauder]

I was surprised to see Maruader's hula girl.. 
I thought he would have this one.

That is what she looks like when she gets up on the glareshield. She got a few hours of turbulence on that flight and all that gyrating she did, she lost it all.



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[bonal]

OK to the stats folks.  any way we can confirm that us VFR guys are just deadly risk takers as opposed to IFR guys that dont put pants on one leg at a time.  I mean statistical history that shows the number of VFR accidents (in VFR conditions) vs IFR in IFR conditions.  Flying Visual into insrument conditions is an avoidable thing like running out of gas it requires planning and understanding your conditions before you go and do something stupid. You IFR guys are superior pilots I get that but you also take on greater risk because you can challenge the weather.  My go no go is real clear and easy to decide so i'd like proof of how much safer your world is than mine. perhaps you will convince me it's really worth the time and expense to achieve this (and I'm not the one that was asking in the first place)

[gsengle]

No one is saying that flying single pilot IFR isn't possibly riskier than sticking to VFR.

 

But what I think we can say is that for a given set of identical flights, say all planned to be VFR, the IFR rated pilot will statistically likely be safer, as he or she will mitigate those inadvertent IMC risks.

 

If inadvertent IMC was so easy to avoid, why does it nab pilots year after year? Sure you can avoid but it really means being relatively conservative especially when going on any longer cross countries...

 

 

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[carusoam]

There are two types of accidents that continue to ruin the VFR pilot's day...

1) run out of gas.

2) run into weather.

If you have and use strategies to avoid these, you are a safe pilot.

If you are a safe pilot already and you get an IR, you probably aren't going to push your own limits any more than you did the day before. Either accidently, or on purpose...

 

There are two additional types of accidents that are typically reserved for IR pilots

1) flight into thunderstorms.

2) flight into icing conditions.

 

I think the question was a bit sinister the way I understood it...

Translated, it sounded similar to this...

Hey guys,

1) I'm retired

2) I'm not strapped for cash

3) I'm going to do some flight training each year

4) what do you think I can blow this year's training budget on?

 

If this is your situation, you have a great cross country traveling machine, go IR!  At least the parts that allow you to to perform a standard rate 180° turn and talk comfortably with ATC...

And get some improved sensors for FF, fuel to destination, accurate fuel level, that kind of thing...

 

its definitely not intended to be  an I'm better than you kind of statement.  But there are things a retired guy can do with his training budget that would be good for him statistically typing...  

I have a car that reminds me of how human I can be...if it were a plane, I would have left in a field.  Permanently! It is a combination of Crappy instruments, always low on fuel, but fun to drive...

If that doesn't work, go sign up for formation flying.  That looks like a challenge...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 8, 2017 by carusoam

[Hector]

The question in my mind is, can you fly for however many days you have left and never need the training/skill learned through IR? I flew just fine for around 7 years as a VFR pilot with great success being careful in my flight planning....until the day I didn't and almost died. Through a series of events I will not bore you with I ended up in IMC at night and almost lost control several times. I got my IR right after that. Twenty years later and now in my fifties I fly when I want to and I don't have to be anywhere. Don't do hardly any IMC flying but still take an IPC every year.....in case IMC finds me.


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[Wildhorsesracing]

We all agree that one of the things that is awesome about a Mooney is it's ability as a truly a great cross country machine.  I have always approached my cross country travel with the attitude that the journey can be as much fun as the destination.  It is not uncommon for me to fly at 2500-3500' AGL enjoying the view, and since I fly at those flight levels regularly it doesn't phase me to fly under 4000' overcast skies.  Two of my favorite books are Cannibal Queen by Stephen Coonts and Flight of Passage by Rinker Buck both of which are excellent books about the romance and experience of flying cross country purely for the view.

If your mission is to reach your destination no matter what the weather is then by all means get your IR.  I practice standard rate turns all the time to make sure I can get out of a sticky situation, but I rarely even approach weather especially when I see it on the horizon.

I have a few friends who had their pilots' license complete with IR and let them lapse, they all agree that an IR is worth the effort if you need to get somewhere.  But since most of them are generally not flying anymore they all admit that maybe getting an IR was overkill.  How many of you have friends who have let their flying skills lapse?

My hopes were for some unique reason for me personally get an IR, but since I usually take the flight path less travelled and enjoy the journey as much as the destination then possibly an IR is not for me.

I didn't intend to spark such a lively discussion, but we all agree that some pilots need an IR and many don't.  The key is to define your personal mission and get the training that suits your mission.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Forgot weather for a moment while weighing IR advantages:  

On an IFR flight plan you don't worry much about busting A, B, C or restricted or prohibited airspace or TFRs.  You have terrain and obstacle clearance built-in.  ATC calls out traffic for you. 

Look how simple the IFR charts are compared to a VFR sectional. 

In many parts of the USA it is easier & less nerve-wracking to file  IFR.  

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

5 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

I have a few friends who had their pilots' license complete with IR and let them lapse, they all agree that an IR is worth the effort if you need to get somewhere.  But since most of them are generally not flying anymore they all admit that maybe getting an IR was overkill.  How many of you have friends who have let their flying skills lapse?

I'll contribute my perspective on the usefulness of an IR in a traveling airplane which might be representative of several MSers.

While flying with "reference to instruments only" skills will rust with disuse, as with riding the proverbial bicycle the skills, habits, and instincts ingrained in 40 or more hours of training never goes away completely. I did not fly from about 1990 to 2011, but before 1990 I had flown well over 2500 hours and my logbook indicates that about 10% of those hours were IMC.

When I came back to flying in 2011 I found that landing a PA28 was about as easy as ever. Holding heading and altitude did not take much practice either. When I prepped for an IPC I found that those "aviate" skills were still there as were the "communicate" skills. "Navigate" took a little longer largely because GPS was completely new technology to me. I conclude that even if a pilot does not exercise her privileges the skills obtained may well save her life when weather does what weather does. Further, filing IFR when traveling over 50 miles, even in CAVU conditions, has several benefits: I'm talking to someone in the case of an emergency; I will not inadvertently enter a restricted area or a hot MOA; I will have another set of eyes looking out for traffic conflicts... 

I just checked my logbook and note that my IMC hours are still running about 10%. Once in a while I find it "necessary" to shoot an approach to near minimums (ceiling under 400). Being willing and able to do that got us into KGGG for MooneyMax  and into KERV for a plant tour last year. (MooneyGirl was with me on the latter, perhaps that flight was part of her motivation to get the IR she's working on now!) I had to do an approach into both Madison WI and Fredricksburg VA to do Mooney Caravan. Likewise Panama City Beach for Summit a couple of years ago. I fly NC to ME every year - I'd guess that at least 1/2 those flights involve some IMC. 

I'm 74 and I've been retired for 16 years. I do not "have" to be anywhere on any schedule but being "qualified and equipped" is useful and personally satisfying.

[Danb]

Bob you saved me a good bit of writing, I admit when my skills lower and they do, I do not fly in tough conditions but increase my practicing, I do take the MAPA course every year I started the program about 5 yrs ago, prior to that I engaged in a 3 day flying event every year except a couple, like flight safety etc. That being said it seem's like my training is high but my skills diminish, I have to assume due to age.  That being said my limits  continue to rise, Last year I planned a trip from Tx to De expecting an easy light IFR trip, I had to shoot two approaches to near minimums  Cincinnati and Wilmington, not planned, the training allowed me to complete the trip safely, if I had known the weather would have diminished that much I would have delayed to another day. The rating saved me in a sense. I don't think I'm any better than a VFR pilot maybe worse? The extra training necessary for the rating has helped greatly.

[DanM20C]

6 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

I have a few friends who had their pilots' license complete with IR and let them lapse, they all agree that an IR is worth the effort if you need to get somewhere. 

None of us "need" to get somewhere.  When we as pilots think/feel that way it can become dangerous. VFR or IFR.  I think there are safe pilots and irresponsible pilots, the ratings held don't necessarily matter.  The type of VFR pilot that runs out of fuel or gets into trouble in IMC, is that same guy who gets his IFR ticket and finds a thunderstorm or severe icing.  A safety conscious VFR pilot that gets an instrument rating will continue to be a safety conscientious IFR pilot.  He wont get his ticket and immediately blast off into bad weather.

6 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

My hopes were for some unique reason for me personally get an IR, but since I usually take the flight path less travelled and enjoy the journey as much as the destination then possibly an IR is not for me.

Many of us that fly IFR use your same argument, we enjoy the journey as much as the destination.  Actually that saying probably holds true for all Mooney owners.

I hope you pursue the IR, for no other reason than it's fun.  I'm assuming your Mooney is at least minimally equipped for IFR.  If it is, you can start the training with little investment.  If you find you don't enjoy it, let it go.  The training won't be wasted as everything is applicable to VFR flying.

Good Luck,

Dan

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by DanM20C

[gsengle]

Yeah except sometimes we do really need to get somewhere. Sure we can minimize when this happens and we can have a good attitude, but say you were somewhere remote and your spouse was in a car accident back home and it was life threatening, it would be hard to say but "I really don't need to get home."

It's never the simple case that gets ya... including in terms of get there itis....


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[kortopates]

Yeah except sometimes we do really need to get somewhere. Sure we can minimize when this happens and we can have a good attitude, but say you were somewhere remote and your spouse was in a car accident back home and it was life threatening, it would be hard to say but "I really don't need to get home."

It's never the simple case that gets ya... including in terms of get there itis....


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Agreed but I think it's even simpler than that. Once you use your Mooney as the very capable x-ctry plane it is its no longer practical to just camp out unexpectedly for multiple days because there are clouds. As delays mount I suspect the typical pilot will feel the pressure mount to move on and then the risk taking begins.


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[gsengle]

Totally agree. Was just trying to also refute the idea that willpower to sit put is enough to counteract what you're describing, because sometimes you can't sit, even if you're willing to... but I was definitely motivated to get my rating by being stuck in the Carolinas for three days due to easy IFR weather...


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[midlifeflyer]

Just now, kortopates said:

Agreed but I think it's even simpler than that. Once you use your Mooney as the very capable x-ctry plane it is its no longer practical to just camp out unexpectedly for multiple days because there are clouds. As delays mount I suspect the typical pilot will feel the pressure mount to move on and then the risk taking begins.


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I recall the time a friend of mine got stuck for 2 days ou of town. The weather was IFR. The type of IFR a pilot with limited experience and high personal minimums would have found easy but which precluded safe VFR.

[bonal]

As the other side of this discussion I dont agree that time will increase my likelyhood of doing something stupid.  I look at weather the same as I look at oil pressure or a dead Mag etc. I dont fly if it aint safe. The only time I had a hold for weather we stayed an extra day then when things did not improve I extended the rental car aggreement and we drove home a few days later I drove back dropped off the rental and flew home, no big deal.  Maybe some of you dont trust yourselves enough to stay on the ground so you get a rating that says you dont have to.  Hey I'm super happy for you!!!