Cheap way into the ADSB & WAAS IFR GPS LPV club?

[glafaille]

The following is only my opinion.  

Here are some of the problems I see with multi-box ADS-B solutions.  

Interfacing all the boxes together is frequently a challenge, maintaining that interface through software updates of the various boxes seems even more challenging.  

Contemplating future avionics upgrades must always take the interface between the various devices into account and may restrict your choices of equipment or manufacturers in the future.  

If your system develops problems in the future it will likely be more difficult to troubleshoot and identify the offending piece of equipment as they are all networked together.  Intermittent problems will likely be a real can of worms.  I can tell you from experience that network problems with aircraft equipment can be a very expensive nightmare that drags on for a long time.

On the other hand, a single box solution either works or it doesn't.  One manufacturer to deal with and a minimum of failure points to cause problems.  Software updates of other boxes or equipment upgrades will have no affect on your ADS-B capability.

Finally, ADS-B out is legally a no-go piece of equipment.  If it doesn't work you are grounded, except to get it fixed or to continue to your ultimate destination.  Doesn't matter if you are VFR or IFR.  Doesn't matter what airspace you will operate in, legally you are grounded.

Any no-go piece of equipment or system should be as reliable and trouble free as possible in my opinion.  A single box solution is the simplest to install, maintain and replace.  I would like to see a truly single box solution that includes everything, including the encoder, WAAS-GPS, ADS-B In/Out tranceiver, wifi and transponder.  One box to install and maintain, and not dependant on any other piece of equipment to work.

The AOPA has sent out a warning email to warn owners of aircraft with ADS-B out installed.  It seems the FAA is even now sending threatening letters to owners of ADS-B equipped aircraft if they detect the equipment is inoperative or malfunctioning.  The AOPA is advising folks to contact the AOPA legal department if they receive such a letter.

ADS-B is a very complex system with many associated variables to consider, and severe ramifications if inoperative.  Your decision to equip or not, and what equipment to use should not be taken lightly.

[glafaille]

This looks interesting.  Not yet available or legal for certified aircraft but who knows?  We have 3 years to go.  And it is small, weighs about 3 oz.  Control the settings and configuration with your Iphone.

http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-atu-20/

[Bob - S50]

17 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

In my question I meant to write GTN 650.  If I do the GN430W to GTN 650 upgrade priced in the post above at less than $6,000, would that give me ADS-B out?  Would it also give Flightstream connection to Foreflight?

thanks

No.  Either the GNS430W or the GTN650 will provide the position source for ADS-B OUT but do not provide the actual ADS-B OUT.  If you have either of those navigators, you have several options.  Cheapest is an OUT solution that does not include a built in GPS.  That includes Garmin GTX335, King KT74, Trig TT31, and a few others which are 1090 OUT.  There are also several remote mount 978 OUT boxes as well including the Rangr 978/Lite.  If you also want IN, you can buy a box like the GTX345 or the Lynx NGT-9000 or something similar that do both.  Or you can install an OUT only box and buy a portable IN unit like a Stratus or Garmin GDL39.

Confused yet?

[tigers2007]

My deal is that if I sell the plane, I keep the radios and will install them in my replacement bird. If I'm pumping in $12k for radios this year and realistically $25-28k for a new motor next year (or two) there is no way I will recover much back. I'm into mine about $35,000 right now and it has 2110SMOH. About $75k in I'll have a nicely equipped Mooney Pit with all of the fancy gadgets, bells, and whistles.

 

I've considered joining the Air National Guard (aviation maintenance tech) as a path to getting my A&P legally, quickly, and without quitting my current career. Just imagine how much cheaper everything would be. If I could go back in time, I would tell myself to get my A&P when I was lounging around in my early 20's.

 

As it has been stated earlier by others, the installation costs for a brand-new GTN series versus 430W are about the same. The street price for a 430W is slowly coming down. Member Alan Fox is hawking them at under $6500 apiece. A GTN650 is under $10k. A 635 is a couple grand less and the barebones 625 is under $6k. The GTX330ES's run for $2k now so $8500 plus install (about $12k total). I'm seriously considering the GTN625/GTX345 for $14k installed deal as it is only a couple grand more than the 430W/330ES installed. I could sell the 300XL for $1500 and get the adsb rebate for $500. Then i can shop around for a used Icom or VAL Comm 2000 for a secondary and modern back VHF rig (as the GTN625 has no comm or nav).

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[tigers2007]

I gave in and decided to buy a GTN650, got a great deal. Now I'm deciding on either a used 330ES, new GTX345, or a new NGT9000. The million dollar question is will the NGT9000 interface with the GTN to display wx and traffic? I've been searching the internets for hours and cannot get a straight answer.

 

**Edit** L3 confirmed that the Garmin GTN's will only accept only traffic data from the L3 Lynx.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AlexLev]

I just did my ADS-B Out. I already had a 430W (although recently had to pony up $1,000 to repair it) and a GTX 330 that I sent in for the ES upgrade. $1164 for the ES upgrade + about 350-400 labor (they did 4 hours + charged me for some coax wires), for a total of about $1530. No rebate on the ES upgrade unfortunately.

[bradp]

@AlexLev why doesn't your ES qualify for the FAA rebate?

[tigers2007]

[mention=14501]AlexLev[/mention] why doesn't your ES qualify for the FAA rebate?

FAA has stated that "software upgrades of existing equipment are not eligible".

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate/

Under "Eligible Equipment".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bradp]

So it sounds like if you upgrade your ES no dice. If you buy a used ES, maybe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tigers2007]

If you buy a used ES, maybe.

Wow I never though about that. Used 330ES have been going for very close to $2000. So $1500 plus install isn't obnoxious.

Why should I spend the 3-4AMU more for a fancy 345 or Lynx 9000? Stratus 2's are only $500 used... Maybe later I can get the GDL88 to compliment the 330ES and GTN I bought. Sorry - I'm just thinking out loud. My original budget was

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

I've outfitted two planes with ADSB this way.  Assuming you already have a WAAS source such as a 530W or 430W, just add a used 330ES. My experience was about $2000 for the transponder and $400 for the install. You'll get traffic on the 530/430 and use the Stratus for weather on the iPad. Both weather and traffic are much better on the iPad anyway due to screen resolution, the ability to pinch and zoom, etc.

I wouldn't buy a Mooney without WAAS today. And if you have that, the path to ADSB is cheap.

[cnoe]

 

FAA has stated that "software upgrades of existing equipment are not eligible".

 

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate/

 

Under "Eligible Equipment".

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

As I understand it converting a GTX330 to a GTX330-ES is not merely a software upgrade. The unit must be shipped to Garmin for installation of the 1090 transmitter components among other changes. I did this in 2014, long before the rebate, but I'd submit the application if I were you and make them deny it.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tigers2007]

Can anyone confirm that a GTX330ES paired with a GTN will at least display traffic? I have read anecdotal info from other forums that says it will display traffic on a 430W.

**Edit** I just got off the horn with Garmin support. The 330ES will only show TIS [Not TIS-b]. The 335 won't show either. What I've gleaned from perusing the internets is that having an external antenna is key to having good performance. So if I did a GDL88 I would still need to buy a Flightstream.

So it's looking like 330ES + GDL39 w/external antenna would be the ultimate cheapo route for me so far. Wx and TIS-B on the iPad/Droid device only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

Can anyone confirm that a GTX330ES paired with a GTN will at least display traffic? I have read anecdotal info from other forums that says it will display traffic on a 430W.

**Edit** I just got off the horn with Garmin support. The 330ES will only show TIS [Not TIS-b]. The 335 won't show either. What I've gleaned from perusing the internets is that having an external antenna is key to having good performance. So if I did a GDL88 I would still need to buy a Flightstream.

So it's looking like 330ES + GDL39 w/external antenna would be the ultimate cheapo route for me so far. Wx and TIS-B on the iPad/Droid device only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you go the GDL-39, consider the GDL-39R remote mount for a clean hidden install with an external antenna. But they should verify you won't have any bluetooth connectivity issue on their intended install location before they install it. 

GDL-88 is somewhat obsoleted by the GTX-345 which also provides bluetooth connectivity and will integrate ABS-B in wx & traffic with your 430W. In fact it includes everything the FS does except for flight plan sync which keeps the FS210 still desirable. But of course its a big jump in cost from the GDL-39 or 39R to the GTX-345 and the GDL will give you all the same products on your iPad, just not the panel 430W which frankly has limited display capability anyway.