Another new guy from Florida

[EagleDriver]

Hello all, just thought I'd take a slight break from browsing and searching to say hello.  Finally throwing around the idea of an aircraft purchase - after a couple of years of reading and flip-flopping among just about everything on the market.

I've finally determined that my 90% solution is a Mooney, with the Comanche a close but definite second.  All of this, of course, based on what I've researched with no basis in reality nor experience. 

Background is currently an instructor in F-15C's at Eglin in Ft Walton Beach with just under 1000 hours.  On the civilian side; ATP, current with the aero club to get my GA fix, most civilian time is C-172 with a dab of Beech Travelair time, some Cherokee 235, a bigger dab of Bonanza and mostly C-172.

One of these days I'll figure out *which* Mooney fits my liking, maybe even find someone in the local area that would like some free gas with the tax of me as a passenger so I can actually check the old girl out.

Wonderful wealth of info I've found already - this seems like a great place.

Cheers

[gsengle]

Swap ya some Ovation time for some F15 time


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[EagleDriver]

If I could sell it, I'd be a rich man just from friends and family.  And that's with a discount! 

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard EagleDriver!

You know there is a proper Mooney For you, right..?

We have a thread around here that is a list of planes and helicopters some of us (not me) have driven during their military days...

By the way, the best Mooney for you should be....

M20S...  It's known as the Mooney Eagle. Flying one of these would make you an Eagle Driver!

If you are interest in speed and efficiency, mooney has a bird for you.

If you have defined your mission, we can help you find the areas of the Mooney alphabet that may interest you...

There are a few of every Mooney ever made here...  From M20A to M20TN and every letter in between...

Advice: Get a feel for what a PPI is about.

Any questions, just ask...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[ArtVandelay]

BTW, don't know if you're married, but if you are I suggest you take your wife up in a small plane to see if she likes it and include her in the buying process....

[gsengle]

Well one of the first steps in figuring out which is telling the group the following...

What's the budget and what kind of flying do you intend to do?


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[Ftlausa]

Agreed re the Budget number coming early in the process.  There is a wide range of Mooney options from $30k to $700k.  

[1964-M20E]

If you have been lurking around for a while you know that we just had our Mooney Summit in Panama City real close to you and a great opportunity to see and feel many different Mooney planes.

 

Welcome aboard and I'll up gensel's offer 4 to 1 time in a F for F-15 time and I'm probably closer.

 

Define your mission well for a small plane and the right plane with the right capabilities will find you.

 

Finally thank you for your service and thank you to all other veterans and active service personnel on MS.

 

 

[mccdeuce]

@EagleDriver    I have a buddy working the F35 program down there that has a Grumman Cheetah - PM if interested in his contact info - I know he loves to fly and would probably be happy to chat GA options.   

 

[EagleDriver]

Thanks for the replies, all!  I think the end of this opening discussion will probably answer the M20S discussion...I'd love to saddle one up but we're probably looking pre-J so I can enjoy flying (more importantly, keeping it flying) AND staying married!

Funny the wife was mentioned, we'll just call that one marked off of the checklist.  She has shared almost all of my time in a Bonanza, some of the 172, has C-310 ride along time I don't even have and....drumroll - she and my daughter are the only members of my household that actually has flown in a Mooney.  How's that for backwards?  Close friend and member here M016576 took them on an airport run when we were back in Oregon.  Unfortunately for her, he has a Missile with more glass than my day job (literally) so she'll have to tune it down a notch. 

Budget -- under $65K-$70k.  I had planned on (and may still end up there, I've no aversion) a vintage M20, leaning towards an E or F and a bit lower budget.  But, things change, so I've opened up the search slightly.  This is an example of what's on the scope http://www.mooneypilots.com/sales/Jones.html but mostly vintage models so I have the recommended 10AMU from the start, maybe even plus some.

90% mission -- This has taken the most time to settle, still not convinced this is final, but hey, it's 90%, right?

- Needs: The wife and I and the dog for the overwhelming majority.  Maybe room for growth for a tiny human.  I have two daughters, but they are older and the youngest about to move off to college.  Panel config: this may be odd in a need, and I can probably move this to "want" once I'm smart enough on reconfiguration cost and feasibility, but multiple conversations with peers have come to discussing negative transfer from years of instrument flying for work.  I either need a standard configuration instrument layout, or stay VMC until it's fixed. 

- Wants: Efficiency and range, and who doesn't want speed?  Hence, the Mooney and Comanche on the draft board.  Love the Bo minus the tail wag, not keen on their (relative) operating expense.  Comanche makes me a little nervous in this regard as far as parts/availability.  My traveling career isn't over, so it's very difficult to tag a "standard trip range."  Right now, fairly short and flat terrain.  Next year?  Should be back in Oregon - longer trips and certainly different conditions.  5-10 years?  Combination of both or could be firmly back into easy terrain and thunderstorm avoidance in the summertime.  Why the long body?  If the companion list grows on certain trips, it wouldn't bother me to rent - but I'd like to keep that to a minimum and still be able to convince adults to ride along and get into the back seat.

I don't feel strongly about manual vs electric gear, but I do like the idea of the simpler solution.  Everything else is the great unknown, and every time I think I've read it all - I find something new.  180 or 200 HP?  Long or short body?  Manual or electric?  (Insert dozens/hundreds of "little things" here as well; window shape/size, nuances within different years of the same model, etc.)  So, still reading!

Cheers

[EagleDriver]

1964 - I missed that by a couple of weeks, talk about terrible timing!!  And thanks for the kind words!  (Sidebar: you have a whole squadron even closer down there in NOLA!)

Deuce - I'll get you a PM.  I'm almost positive his airplane is sitting right behind my squadron.  At least someone's Grumman is!

[jwilcoxon78]

With respect to your budget, are you looking to finance or pay cash?  I ask because I was in that same area when I bought my J last year.  We had to finance.  After further research, a slightly higher budget yielded about the same monthly P&I payment.  The reason being, most finance companies would only give a 15 year note on amount less that ~$80ish thousand and 20 year notes on loans above that amount.  So, we increased our budget a bit, got a better plane, had the same P&I (albeit over a longer term), at a lower rate.  Now the thought is, pay it off well before then but more money is going to the principal. 

[Mcstealth]

Welcome to he forum. Thank you for your service.

If your spouse has sat and flown both in a Bonanza and a Mooney, and she is okay with either choice, the your battle is already won. 

Check out on this site in the For Sale section @omega708 plane. It is right up your alley, and I personally love the paint scheme.

 

[1964-M20E]

2 hours ago, EagleDriver said:

1964 - I missed that by a couple of weeks, talk about terrible timing!!  And thanks for the kind words!  (Sidebar: you have a whole squadron even closer down there in NOLA!)

Deuce - I'll get you a PM.  I'm almost positive his airplane is sitting right behind my squadron.  At least someone's Grumman is!

Yes they are virtually in my back yard, well front yard.  I can see the base fence from my front door and I watch them on downwind for RWY22.  I've been working different angles for an eagle ride for 28 years now and still no luck.  Really it has been even longer since the Flying magazine writer went up with them in the mid 80's  I guess I will have to settle for an L39 and or P51 ride.

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[EagleDriver]

2 hours ago, jwilcoxon78 said:

With respect to your budget, are you looking to finance or pay cash?  I ask because I was in that same area when I bought my J last year.  We had to finance.  After further research, a slightly higher budget yielded about the same monthly P&I payment.  The reason being, most finance companies would only give a 15 year note on amount less that ~$80ish thousand and 20 year notes on loans above that amount.  So, we increased our budget a bit, got a better plane, had the same P&I (albeit over a longer term), at a lower rate.  Now the thought is, pay it off well before then but more money is going to the principal. 

Ahhh, the magic question.  Well, it depends?  Since I've no aversion to the older legacy birds, that creeps into the cash buy option.  But you bring up an excellent point - as I become more and more convinced the best value in a purchase is NOT upgrading avionics or staring at a quick overhaul, I quickly find myself into newer aircraft or such fine examples of older aircraft that the initial purchase isn't much different, which would lead to a financing path.  You point of the fine line between rates and terms causing a huge swing with only (relatively) slight differences in price has definitely come up.  A search here has turned up some good insight on financing options, and rates are good enough right now that I'd rather leave cash in places it receives a return.  (That's getting close to changing, though.)

 

Mcstealth - Thanks very much!  Yes, she's convinced and after spending a decade married to me and doing lots of traveling (required and leisure) she's pretty convinced that the convenience is worth the price.  Not to mention, no one prefers an airport terminal over fun stops at an FBO.  That's a great point out, I saw that bird! 

 

1964 - Well that's just rubbing it in, then, if you can see the pattern from home!  Unfortunately, it seems to take some combination of media credentials, established as a pretty handy photographer under contract, or so good at football/baseball/basketball that you could likely afford to just buy one!  Then again, if you find a bead on a P-51 you'll be ahead of me...

 

[gsengle]

One thought to throw into the mix... the common wisdom is to buy the best, most well equipped bird you can afford, as this is way more cost effective than upgrading yourself. Note I didn't say newer, that's not always better... personally I'd stretch for a J, as I bet a good one is easier to find - the older the plane, the more you really have to evaluate them individually as the number of mods goes up and the more issues you can find...


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[carusoam]

1) If you already know a GA airplane works for you, go after the one you want, finance it over time...

2) If you are unsure GA will work, stay to the affordable scale and take in the expensive lessons that the smaller scale has to offer.

 

I was married with two kids with the dream of flying.... no experience to know how good GA can be.

We started with a C, learned over time that an F or J would better fit our mission.  Found the O while out looking for the upscale J... a decade later.

At the time the economy was in the crapper,  O prices and J prices were close to overlapping.  Scary financial times...

 

All Mooney models are good...  do you prefer...

1) fuel injection over carburetors?  E vs C discussion...

2) Normally aspirated engines over turbocharged?  Mountain flying vs East Coast, J vs. K discussion...

3) Digital instrument panels over analog? Glass is showing up on planes that didn't have a GPS before...

4) WAAS approaches over ILS?  The ultimate skills for navigating in IMC are now available in all Mooneys...

5) Legroom for the backseaters or let them fend for themselves? Short body, vs mid, vs Long Body discussion...

An entry level M20C can cost 30amu....

add 10amu to get a fuel injected M20E.... favored amongst the knowledgeable retired Mooniacs.

add 10 more AMU to get the 10" of more space of the M20F...  Good for adults with legs.

Add 10 more AMU to modernize the panel... a modern GPS would be nice... flying in IMC?

Add 10 more AMU to modernize the airframe to get the M20J...  a really nice fully developed airframe...

Add 10 more AMU to include a compressor to leap giant mountains to get the M20K.  Proof you are an avid flyer.

Add 10 more AMU to get fancy paint.

Add 10 more AMU to update the interior.

Add 10 more AMU for another fancy navcom of the Gtn variety.

Want to jump in with both feet?  Go Long Body and check off the boxes marked Built-in O2 and FIKI! Expect to put 2X in front of the numbers listed above for that...

These simple estimates of used airplane prices will help you get close to finding the price of used Mooneys.  This helps with the question 'If you have 10 extra AMU how would you spend it?'

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Mooneymite]

Since you get to fly some pretty advanced avionics, either you want your own plane to have "something" akin to what you are used to, or you have the depth of experience to do good work on more basic instrumentation.  Avionics, as you know, can double the price of an airplane.

In my job, I get to fly some pretty nice cockpits.  When I fly my Mooney, I'm able to go everywhere I need to go and shoot instrument approaches "as low as they go"....I don't have anything beyond basic vacuum instruments, with a Garmin 430W.  No HSI, No flight director.  No autopilot (other than the basic PC).  No glass.  I just don't have the need for the latest and greatest.  Our approach speeds just don't demand much help.

If you can be satisfied with less than "Eagle instrumentation", you can find a less expensive genre of airplanes that are "solid, but not advanced".  In other words, you'll be spending your money on airframe/engine, not the panel.  

It's a decision only you can make.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Mooneymite

[Marauder]

My advice is to carefully look at your current flying needs and what you anticipate for the foreseeable future and buy as much airplane as you can equipped with as much avionics as possible.

Don't get wrapped up in the "it sure is a purdy plane" mentality and lose sight of what you really need/want in a plane.

My plane is one in which I invested in mechanically and avionics upgrades because I knew that it was a plane that meets the majority of the missions I fly now and will through retirement. It doesn't sport the prettiest paint job, nor the prettiest interior but it is mechanically sound and has avionics to suit my requirement for both capability and redundancy.

I was a hardcore steam guy until two of the airport's I fly to in New York dropped their VOR approaches in favor of RNAV ones. Other than sitting in the dummy seat as a safety pilot, I had never flown an RNAV approach before 2012. So, when I made the jump to a WAAS GPS I was pleasantly surprised at the capability it provided. And then when I added the rest of the panel, it became a whole new airplane. I absolutely love the additional situational awareness that a glass panel provides and more importantly the additional capabilities. Sitting in the plane watching the autopilot fly GPSS really helps make single pilot IFR more enjoyable.

Choose wisely my friend.



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[EagleDriver]

Fantastic insight - all is much appreciated!

I'm still mostly in research mode - granted, it took me 3 years to buy a truck.  I'll just say I don't take purchase options lightly...

As far as avionics, I have to cage my comments a bit.  Believe it or not, any well equipped GA aircraft, or foreflight, FAR outpaces the actual avionics in the Eagle.  Google a photo of the F-15C cockpit...take away the radar scope and tactical display?  It's all steam gauges and round dials.  That being said, they are well placed, which is totally subjective but I think most would agree based on what I've seen in GA that accompanies an "updated cockpit." All of that to say, if it isn't shot gunned, that's all I define as a need.  ADI at top center, airspeed left, altitude right, compass card (preferably HSI, I admit) low center, VVI bottom right, turn & slip bottom left.  Simple as that.

That being said, I do look for a WAAS capable GA aircraft just because of FAA inertia.  It wouldn't stop me from buying an aircraft on its own, but I can't fly any GPS approach in the Eagle, so I'm not even downgrading there!

I was remiss in my "needs" and "wants" earlier, to a degree.  Nothing different, but I'm basically in tune with one of the suggestions mentioned verbatim: the best, well equipped (not newest) aircraft in the budget.  GA is definitely a go, so we're leaning more towards a long term solution than a "try and see." 

So omissions from earlier on "the list": Engine sweet spot, 500ish to 1200ish.  Low/higher less important than recency and consistency.  It's mechanical - use it or it goes bad.  Avionics: T config, bonus items are an HSI for familiarity and WAAS for growth (not absolute showstoppers.) Airframe: seat adults in the back, assuming that and luggage would put a significant pinch on fuel load/range/etc.

Good words, gents - much appreciated!

 

[KLRDMD]

10 minutes ago, EagleDriver said:

So omissions from earlier on "the list": Engine sweet spot, 500ish to 1200ish.  Low/higher less important than recency and consistency.  It's mechanical - use it or it goes bad.  Avionics: T config, bonus items are an HSI for familiarity and WAAS for growth (not absolute showstoppers.) Airframe: seat adults in the back, assuming that and luggage would put a significant pinch on fuel load/range/etc.

A friend of mine has a nice "E" model for sale on this site. I also made a web page for him. I have no financial interest in the sale of his airplane - I just helped out a friend by making marketing it a bit easier for him. I have personally flown the plane a few times and it is nice and extremely well cared for:

http://www.klrdmd.com/N5918Q.html

[Marauder]

Fantastic insight - all is much appreciated!
I'm still mostly in research mode - granted, it took me 3 years to buy a truck.  I'll just say I don't take purchase options lightly...
As far as avionics, I have to cage my comments a bit.  Believe it or not, any well equipped GA aircraft, or foreflight, FAR outpaces the actual avionics in the Eagle.  Google a photo of the F-15C cockpit...take away the radar scope and tactical display?  It's all steam gauges and round dials.  That being said, they are well placed, which is totally subjective but I think most would agree based on what I've seen in GA that accompanies an "updated cockpit." All of that to say, if it isn't shot gunned, that's all I define as a need.  ADI at top center, airspeed left, altitude right, compass card (preferably HSI, I admit) low center, VVI bottom right, turn & slip bottom left.  Simple as that.
That being said, I do look for a WAAS capable GA aircraft just because of FAA inertia.  It wouldn't stop me from buying an aircraft on its own, but I can't fly any GPS approach in the Eagle, so I'm not even downgrading there!
I was remiss in my "needs" and "wants" earlier, to a degree.  Nothing different, but I'm basically in tune with one of the suggestions mentioned verbatim: the best, well equipped (not newest) aircraft in the budget.  GA is definitely a go, so we're leaning more towards a long term solution than a "try and see." 
So omissions from earlier on "the list": Engine sweet spot, 500ish to 1200ish.  Low/higher less important than recency and consistency.  It's mechanical - use it or it goes bad.  Avionics: T config, bonus items are an HSI for familiarity and WAAS for growth (not absolute showstoppers.) Airframe: seat adults in the back, assuming that and luggage would put a significant pinch on fuel load/range/etc.
Good words, gents - much appreciated!
 

Since your C model was produced about the same time as my F model, here is what they could have installed if they didn't spend all that money on fuel




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[Marauder]

And oh yeah! No G suits when you fly mine. Good luck on the search.


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[EagleDriver]

That's an F?!  May as well be a 787 cockpit from I'm used to looking at!

Aw come on.  We get at least 300-500 feet per gallon!  (I guess the trade off is 13 miles per minute in a rush, but still) 

[gsengle]

Yeah so inquiring minds will wanna know. How's a Mooney handle compared to a F15, acceleration aside


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