Expensive annual

[Guest]

2 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

You're right Clarence, and I admitted that in an earlier post. I did ask what certain discrepancies were going to cost and was told I would be either called "tomorrow" or emailed them later with those answers. Now, not to be a stickler here but since its come up I will mention that the piston maintenance manager didn't always call me when he said he would. Not a big deal, I know they're a big shop and have a lot going on and I didn't want to be one of those PIA customers that I'm sure you probably get the pleasure of dealing with, demanding estimates for every single discrepancy. My personality it pretty laid back so I just had faith, based on comments from fellow MSers, that the costs would be similar to what I've paid in the past for similar work. No, I didn't ask what the tires costs as I haven't dealt with a shop that stocks their own parts so I didn't have an idea their mark ups would be so high. I happened to be wrong and hopefully other can learn from it. I know I did. 

I should also mention, I took my own anticipated parts with me when I dropped off the plane. I was told that wasn't necessary because they stock their own parts. I was told they would have to charge me a handling charge "in case they drop [and break]" one of my supplied parts. I took brake pads, an ELT battery, oil, camguard, screws, etc. Nothing major. I didn't really balk at this but was mildly annoyed by this notion. Again, hopefully a learning lesson for someone else.

Do you also take your own steak, potato, vegetables and pie to your anniversary dinner?  We all know these can be had cheaper at the grocery store than at a restaurant.

Clarence

 

[Bravoman]

22 hours ago, Brandontwalker said:

Take it easy on the lawyers. Most, myself included, bill in .1 hour (6 minute) increments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And I don't bill at all! Only get paid if I win.:)

[Bravoman]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Yes I did read your entire post, several times in fact.

Sorry if you took offence to my post, non was meant.  However as a career maintainer and shop owner I am amazed when I read posts by people complaining about maintenance.  So many are happy to call shop owners crooks and mechanics idiots.  Just look at the post where the shop must have had a slow month or overspent on toys and as a result too the mechanics to stick it to the next guy. Many of these same people seem to happily blow the wad on new avionics which take even more money to keep current, then bitch when they were "over charged" for something relating to maintenance.

I'm not defending the shop's invoice or their billing practice.  But  to take just the tire, if it "lists at Spruce for $100.00 the shop might have bought it for $95.00 marked it up to $130.00 and then added on the shipping charge.  I know my shop doesn't get free shipping from Spruce or any of my other suppliers, so as a natural part of business it gets added to the price.

I don't know if there is tax on maintenance where you live, but here it's 13%in many cases the government makes more on a job than I do.  It's a tough business to make a decent living in.

Clarence

 

Overall we pilots are an enigmatic bunch. A friend of mine who flys a newer cirrus was bitching about the price of ForeFlight. Everyone I think agrees there is a lot of bang for the buck there. I laughed and he asked me why I thought it was funny and I told him that you're standing next to your 700k plane and complaining about a $150 subscription on something I know you really like. He paused for a second and started laughing also!

[THill182]

14 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

Overall we pilots are an enigmatic bunch. A friend of mine who flys a newer cirrus was bitching about the price of ForeFlight. Everyone I think agrees there is a lot of bang for the buck there. I laughed and he asked me why I thought it was funny and I told him that you're standing next to your 700k plane and complaining about a $150 subscription on something I know you really like. He paused for a second and started laughing also!

I was once asked how I can justify the cost of a new WAAS GPS in an old (former) plane; I realized that I cannot justify owning a plane, and in the end an airplane is just the best, most efficient, and most fun way to convert discretionary income into noise. Actually, I have found that many pilots drive "modest" practical cars, because when you buy a new luxury car every 3 years (I know several people who do that), frankly the financials around that are just as wasteful (almost)...

[Heloman]

As an A&P myself I cringe a little when I read posts like this and I'm thankful, but a little sad, my career path changed direction slightly, and I don't actually work on airplanes other then my own anymore.

1. While the shop may have simply been trying to divvy up all the time they spent on your plane the best they could, the cotter pin thing was over the top and ridiculous. You itemize a couple easily accessible cotter pins on a bill like that and you deserve to be raked over the coals on an Internet forum for your stupidity!

2. I'm always a little surprised when I hear or read about people comparing their local mechanic to an actual shop. While your local mechanic working out of the back of his minivan may be responsibly insured, many are not. I was recently asked to take over the maintenance facility at my local field. Without any serious thought I refused; I'd never be able to compete with my (very good) local "minivan-mechanics" that work on most of the aircraft based on my field without any insurance or the overhead of an actual shop facility.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bennett]

I would be very distrustful of a one day annual. I believe in flying zero known defect aircraft, and therefore I bring my airplane to LASAR for all routine maintenance, including oil changes, between annuals. When annual time comes, the aircraft is flying as perfectly as I can make it. Yet, my annuals normally take well over a week, and they almost always find something that could cause a problem in the near future, and then there are the regular timed inspections and replacements of back-up batteries, etc. Frankly I appreciate their work, and while I gasp a bit at what it costs to do the job right, I would quit flying if I couldn't afford to minimize the mechanical aspects of risk. These (mine at least) are old airplanes, and things will break, or breakdown, over time. Continuous conscientious maintenance is good risk management, and this maintenance is, in my opinion, only as good as the shop and mechanics who perform the work. Off my soapbox.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

You're right Clarence, and I admitted that in an earlier post. I did ask what certain discrepancies were going to cost and was told I would be either called "tomorrow" or emailed them later with those answers. Now, not to be a stickler here but since its come up I will mention that the piston maintenance manager didn't always call me when he said he would. Not a big deal, I know they're a big shop and have a lot going on and I didn't want to be one of those PIA customers that I'm sure you probably get the pleasure of dealing with, demanding estimates for every single discrepancy. My personality it pretty laid back so I just had faith, based on comments from fellow MSers, that the costs would be similar to what I've paid in the past for similar work. No, I didn't ask what the tires costs as I haven't dealt with a shop that stocks their own parts so I didn't have an idea their mark ups would be so high. I happened to be wrong and hopefully other can learn from it. I know I did. 
I should also mention, I took my own anticipated parts with me when I dropped off the plane. I was told that wasn't necessary because they stock their own parts. I was told they would have to charge me a handling charge "in case they drop [and break]" one of my supplied parts. I took brake pads, an ELT battery, oil, camguard, screws, etc. Nothing major. I didn't really balk at this but was mildly annoyed by this notion. Again, hopefully a learning lesson for someone else.

Think of it as a "corkage fee" when you supply your own parts. You are asking the shop not only to provide the labor piece of the solution, but also the fully functional part of which they don't have complete control of the process. That said, the shop should be communicative of all costs up front, and not gouge on parts markup. The reputable ones dont, have more business than they can handle and have to schedule, and are making a very good living as they should.
Just my .02 USD

[Danb]

One frustrating thing especially this year is the amount of things that seem to be messed up after the annual, this year I had an unusual amount of items that had to be addressed after the annual was completed. The last couple of years I had my annual done at a center 1000+ miles from home and had to have numerous items fixed back at home base. I've learned a lesson on why not to do that again. Regarding the marked up items if the shops don't mark them up they then would need to increase the hourly rate, no matter how they bill the end result should be the same. The  bill. If one brings there own parts then the shop rate should be higher. 

[rbridges]

19 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

Thanks for boiling down my post to your opinion that I shouldn't own an airplane Clarence. Did you even read my entire post? Not sure if you did or did not but I'll summarize that the reason I posted it was to give someone in my position an idea on what to expect in a similar situation. I didn't find any posts about Crownair Aviation so this was partially a shop review documenting my experience. I didn't bash the shop or speak negatively about their work.  I just questioned some of their billing practices, time to complete tasks and stated what I thought about their parts mark ups. Some of us Mooney owners are "frugal" to say the least. Had I known they marked up their tires that much I would have declined it and had my local guy done it and saved some money doing it. 

A shop owner is absolutely allowed to make a profit. I believe in a free market and not socialism so no issues there. However, as owners we have a right to manage maintenance costs and safety doesn't have to be compromised in the process. I felt I was nickled and dimed on some (not all) of the billing. Being billed for 30 minutes for something that takes 2 is unreasonable to me and it becomes an issue when the bill is higher than I expected. Being billed $22 to take an oil sample also seems unreasonable. That's almost the cost of the test itself.

If the bill came out to $3,500 I probably wouldn't even have mentioned it. And I'm not saying I wasn't happy with the work as they found issues with the plane I was not aware of. I just wish I had been given better communication on what the costs were adding up to so it wasn't such a shock when I got the final invoice. I didn't know what certain things were going to cost until they were done. Is this my fault, yes, I'll say it partially is but perhaps the next guy can learn from this. But I guess questioning some billing means I shouldn't own an airplane, right? I guess I should just open up my check book and let them fill in the amount and just smile. 

Steve

I agree that a shop is entitled to a profit.  Otherwise, they won't be around when we need them.  I think I have a similar mentality to notarpilot.  I expect a shop to mark parts up slightly, but I also feel they should get some type of discount so the markup should be reasonable.  Charging someone 1.5 hrs to change oil in a standalone procedure is one thing, but not in an annual when everything is already disassembled.  Same thing with the cotter pins.  Yeah, he had to get parts, but he should have picked them up with the other parts.  He also has to write it up, but that should be done with the rest of the write up.  You don't make 50 trips to a grocery store to buy each individual item.

If you're going to charge me $100 per hour or $75 per hour, so be it, but keep the times realistic.  Otherwise I feel like they're trying to pad their costs. 

 

[Cyril Gibb]

On 2016-12-03 at 7:01 AM, Ratherbflying said:

I'm still in shock from reading this statement.

Unless they had a team of a six mechanics working eight straight hours with the precision of an Indy pit crew, these are what is known as a "paper annual".

I had the same shock followed by a good laugh.  Then after digesting the OPs comment about a one day annual, I was thinking that it's even more disturbing.  I do the owner assist thing, and I know that it's so patently absurd that a retract annual could be done in a day that even the suggestion could be dangerous.  It cannot be done.

A one day annual means that the aircraft wasn't inspected and maintained according to even minimal legal requirements. Anyone who had a one day annual got ripped off.  Anyone who got a one day annual and takes passengers is irresponsible.

 

[ArtVandelay]

4 hours ago, Heloman said:

2. I'm always a little surprised when I hear or read about people comparing their local mechanic to an actual shop. While your local mechanic working out of the back of his minivan may be responsibly insured, many are not. I was recently asked to take over the maintenance facility at my local field. Without any serious thought I refused; I'd never be able to compete with my (very good) local "minivan-mechanics" that work on most of the aircraft based on my field without any insurance or the overhead of an actual shop facility.
 

How does one find these minivan mechanics?  Both my local resident mechanics have retired.

[bonal]

I have learned that in my case doing the owner assist annual saves almost nothing since the "inspection " is flat rate even though I put in a full eight hours labor per day for the duration of the job to this I don't think that's fair BUT it's a known policy so I accept it. The value I receive is being present for all the process and knowing everything that is going on with my Mooney. In fact after doing 4 of these and having many problems needing repair I feel if I had the special tools I could perform a very thorough PPI on a 20 a b or c. As far as bringing your own parts to the party you also have to keep in mind warranty and liability issues. When a shop sources it's parts they know what those covered items are. They have no way to know that the part you supplied didn't sit on a shelf in your Hangar for decades and might not be acceptable. I would love to have a cheaper annual but with my budget I choose to spend money on a safe airplane and don't worry about upgrading with stuff I don't really need and can't afford. On the other side when I have maintenance to be done they allow me to do much of the labor and don't charge for anything not done by their mechanics. 

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, Cyril Gibb said:

I had the same shock followed by a good laugh.  Then after digesting the OPs comment about a one day annual, I was thinking that it's even more disturbing.  I do the owner assist thing, and I know that it's so patently absurd that a retract annual could be done in a day that even the suggestion could be dangerous.  It cannot be done.

A one day annual means that the aircraft wasn't inspected and maintained according to even minimal legal requirements. Anyone who had a one day annual got ripped off.  Anyone who got a one day annual and takes passengers is irresponsible.

 

Oh, it can be done, but only at a large repair station. I've seen a King Air in and out in of a phase in a day, but that's with 8 people running around the aircraft. Never seen it done on a smaller aircraft. MU2 guys fly into Green Bay and are usually out in one day as well unless their props are due.

Edited December 4, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[gsengle]

Mine take at least 4-5 days at a smallish shop. Flat rate for Mooney just around 2k, plus then any parts and repairs, often escape for less than 4. That said I've a newish Mooney that has been well maintained.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AndyFromCB]

2 minutes ago, bonal said:

I have learned that in my case doing the owner assist annual saves almost nothing since the "inspection " is flat rate even though I put in a full eight hours labor per day for the duration of the job to this I don't think that's fair BUT it's a known policy so I accept it. The value I receive is being present for all the process and knowing everything that is going on with my Mooney. In fact after doing 4 of these and having many problems needing repair I feel if I had the special tools I could perform a very thorough PPI on a 20 a b or c. As far as bringing your own parts to the party you also have to keep in mind warranty and liability issues. When a shop sources it's parts they know what those covered items are. They have no way to know that the part you supplied didn't sit on a shelf in your Hangar for decades and might not be acceptable. I would love to have a cheaper annual but with my budget I choose to spend money on a safe airplane and don't worry about upgrading with stuff I don't really need and can't afford. On the other side when I have maintenance to be done they allow me to do much of the labor and don't charge for anything not done by their mechanics. 

Yeap, it's not about saving money but learning all about the systems. Might come in handy one day, whether in making a go/no decision, or dealing with an emergency in the air, but it always comes in handy in ability to describe an issue to a mechanic and pointing them in a right starting direction, saves a ton of money in the long run.

[TWinter]

My shop usually sets aside 40 hrs for a comprehensive annual. It is not a MSC, but very thorough and gives complete and typed reports when done. Base price starts at 2K and fluids are not included. A few years ago he was at $1800 and later went to $2000. It's a three man shop and says he actually has a hard time getting everything done in his 40 hr window he allocates. No owner assisted.

On the other hand I could go down the road and get it done for $800. The $800 shop actually has a good reputation, but they must be doing something different for there to be that much difference in money. I've been w/ my $2k guy since getting my Mooney. The average seems to be $2-3k so I think his timeframe and pricing is fair. Usually I end up out the door about $3k lighter in the wallet by the time it's all said and done.

 If I'm going to skimp anywhere...maintenance on my airplane is not where I'll trim fat off my budget..If something goes south while I'm in the air I've never found the breakdown lane to pullover and look under hood/cowl to see what the problem is.

-Tom

[NotarPilot]

7 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Do you also take your own steak, potato, vegetables and pie to your anniversary dinner?  We all know these can be had cheaper at the grocery store than at a restaurant.

Clarence

 

In the past I had to bring in my own parts to the annual because the other shop, which was just one guy running it, did not have a parts department, so I had to be prepared. Keep in mind, I've been an airplane owner for just under 5 years and only used one shop for my annuals so this is what I was accustomed to. I didn't know other shops kept their own parts department like a car dealership service center. So why would I think otherwise if I never used this shop or they didn't tell me this before hand?

As far as the one day annual is concerned, I used that shop based on a recommendation from a fellow Mooney owner who also used that shop. I participated in each previous annual to learn about my plane. At no time did I think this was an abbreviated annual until I spoke with Maurader about it at Oshkosh this past year. Wanting to have the safest plane possible I decided to switch shops and I'm still glad I did. 

Lastly, I'm not bashing the shop (for the hundredth time). I'm merely writing about my experience so others with limited experience as owners can have an idea on what to expect. No one wakes up the day after buying an airplane being an expert in airplane maintenance management. I've learned a lot over the years but there's still more to learn. This experience was a great learning lesson for me.  I appreciate everyone's comments who've chimed in.

[Bennett]

Bonal makes a very good point here. I once did an owner assisted annual- not to save money, but to learn just what is involved, and what to look for. Lots of bruised knuckles and a cut or two, but the experience was very valuable. I learned more about the mechanical aspects of my 261 than I did by reading manuals and brochures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AndyFromCB]

6 hours ago, TWinter said:

My shop usually sets aside 40 hrs for a comprehensive annual. It is not a MSC, but very thorough and gives complete and typed reports when done. Base price starts at 2K and fluids are not included. A few years ago he was at $1800 and later went to $2000. It's a three man shop and says he actually has a hard time getting everything done in his 40 hr window he allocates. No owner assisted.

On the other hand I could go down the road and get it done for $800. The $800 shop actually has a good reputation, but they must be doing something different for there to be that much difference in money. I've been w/ my $2k guy since getting my Mooney. The average seems to be $2-3k so I think his timeframe and pricing is fair. Usually I end up out the door about $3k lighter in the wallet by the time it's all said and done.

 If I'm going to skimp anywhere...maintenance on my airplane is not where I'll trim fat off my budget..If something goes south while I'm in the air I've never found the breakdown lane to pullover and look under hood/cowl to see what the problem is.

-Tom

I don't understand the how an annual can be performed according to the mooney manual for $800. Aircraft with many of these annuals are the ones with worn control systems with lots of slop, way out spec landing gear, etc, etc, etc. I've never found a competent mechanic capable of supporting a shop in $20 an hour. I don't see how you could even heat a large hangar for that much in winter, or cool it in the summer. Just keeping a set of updated manuals (not that the $800 annual shop would have them) probably costs more than that per year.

Edited December 5, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[Heloman]

How does one find these minivan mechanics?  Both my local resident mechanics have retired.

You'll know if they're around, you'll see their minivan parked in front of a different hangar everyday, lol! These are usually older guys; you probably wont find them on any website. Kind of sad if there isn't one around.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, teejayevans said:

How does one find these minivan mechanics?  Both my local resident mechanics have retired.

at many FBO's, on Saturday morning, you will usually find a group of older pilots sitting around a "table of knowledge" hanger flying and sharing other legendary fables. Asking them will usually generate a good hours worth of social fodder for them.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

at many FBO's, on Saturday morning, you will usually find a group of older pilots sitting around a "table of knowledge" hanger flying and sharing other legendary fables. Asking them will usually generate a good hours worth of social fodder for them.

Mike,

In our part of the country we call it the "IKEA" table, "I Know Everything A####le" table.

Clarence

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Ive read through all this post, and seen both sides.  So as someone who owns a design and build company for residential construction i will throw in my two pennyworth.  

We design a clients house down to the individual glass type in the window pane, the tap on the bathroom sink etc.  Often the clients ask us if we get a trade discount, we say yes.  They then ask if we pass this onto them.  We say no.  Why? We are asked, because that is my profit and what feeds me.   Some clients say they will supply all the products themselves and go hunting off on the internet for the cheapest deal possible for what we have spec'd.  They are warned with a programme of when we want the goods on site, ALL of them, ie The Tap has to come with fittings to connect it to the pipe etc.  If the goods dont arrive when we say, ie if there is a delay then the client gets charged one weeks worth of plumber or whatever trade charge as we have to cancel him and get him back again, etc etc.  Why should i pick up that cost when it was the client that caused the issue.  

So the moral i am trying to tell is this:-  if you want an expert to do a job for you, then dont be suprised when he / she charges you for that job, and that includes charging you for ordering the parts.  For example we charge full price inc delivery plus £80 an hour or part thereof for ordering.  

When we work we receive a salary or payment for our work, every hour of it, so why shouldnt someone we ask to do work for us get the same benefit?  Unless they are lawyers of course (joke). 

Andrew

Well said Andrew!

Clarence

[Cruiser]

Andrew,

Do you charge for the design work in addition to the hardware?

If you do then I would expect you are making a profit on your work. That should include time for ordering, scheduling and supervising the work (account management)

I expect you to mark up the products you supply HOWEVER, I would not expect to pay more than MSRP for those items. 

I hope this is what you are saying.

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

Ive read through all this post, and seen both sides.  So as someone who owns a design and build company for residential construction i will throw in my two pennyworth.  

We design a clients house down to the individual glass type in the window pane, the tap on the bathroom sink etc.  Often the clients ask us if we get a trade discount, we say yes.  They then ask if we pass this onto them.  We say no.  Why? We are asked, because that is my profit and what feeds me.   Some clients say they will supply all the products themselves and go hunting off on the internet for the cheapest deal possible for what we have spec'd.  They are warned with a programme of when we want the goods on site, ALL of them, ie The Tap has to come with fittings to connect it to the pipe etc.  If the goods dont arrive when we say, ie if there is a delay then the client gets charged one weeks worth of plumber or whatever trade charge as we have to cancel him and get him back again, etc etc.  Why should i pick up that cost when it was the client that caused the issue.  

So the moral i am trying to tell is this:-  if you want an expert to do a job for you, then dont be suprised when he / she charges you for that job, and that includes charging you for ordering the parts.  For example we charge full price inc delivery plus £80 an hour or part thereof for ordering.  

When we work we receive a salary or payment for our work, every hour of it, so why shouldnt someone we ask to do work for us get the same benefit?  Unless they are lawyers of course (joke). 

Andrew

I don't think your price would be the problem.  I absolutely agree you're entitled to make money, but if you made some additions beyond the basics, and I saw 1 hour labor to change 3 light bulbs, for example, I'd get a little irritated.