May be a close call

[Ario]

It happened a few hours ago. I was flying from Gillespie and did a touch-and-go at Ramona. After lift-off from runway 27 at Ramona, I noticed a helicopter emerging from the right but at higher altitude. I thought it will eventually turn right, so continued along the centre of the runway. But the helicopter was getting close and I was climbing. I think I was about 50 feet below the helicopter's altitude and the helicopter was in my 1 o'clock about 300 feet away and still flying towards the runway (may be he was about to turn but I couldn't say because I didn't see any change in his path before I looked left). At that moment I was about to turn left and was thinking why the tower doesn't see the situation when I heard tower calling me saying left pattern. So I quickly said left and turned left. The tower suddenly called me angrily asking "why did you turn left midfield?". I replied because of the helicopter. He didn't say anything else and after I established downwind, he cleared me for another touch-and-go which I refused and returned to Gillespie. 

I'm not trying to justify my action. May be there was a better action I could have done. But what else should I have done? Should I have continued along the centre line because tower hadn't cleared me for a midfield left turn, and hoped that the helicopter eventually turns right and we do not collide when my brain was predicting a collision? Should I have waited a few more seconds to see how close we get and then make a decision to turn or continue? What would you have done if you were in my seat?

I was nervous while flying back to Gillespie.

[gsengle]

Upon seeing the helicopter I would have immediately asked tower if they were in contact with the helicopter. That would have alerted them if they weren't, would have made them notice a potential conflict if they hadn't, or let them tell you to proceed, all is ok.


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[jonhop]

See and avoid takes precedence and it sounds like you did that well... An ASRS may help future incidents in the pattern and for any perceived wrong doing on your part by the tower. The airspace around KSEE, KRNM, El Capitan reservoir and F70 is crazy lately. Today's low clouds didn't help much either as it trapped everyone under 4000'. I flew today as well and spotted numerous aircraft when I flew from F70 to KSEE around 1300. Fortunately we saw each-other and were talking on the San Diego common frequency... Glad you made it home safe!

[211º]

Sounds like you did the right thing. Although the tower can be helpful, the pilot has the better appreciation of those types of situations... and self-preservation.


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[DAVIDWH]

Any situation where a Pvt. Aircraft is below a helicopter is a bad bad situation. 

You don't need to make contact to have a bad day, the downward prop wash

can cause loss of control issues where even the parachute from A Cirrus could not save you. 

You definitely did the right thing.

[jonhop]

Oh, I forgot to mention... When I was getting my PPL at KNZY, my flight instructor told me to always give a helicopter a wide berth and never fly under one, as they produce a ton of wake turbulence, so an early turnout or a steep climb in your case would be appropriate. After thinking back a similar event happened to me at Brown field, KSDM. During a touch and go, a heli was told to hold on the south side of the field, as I was in the take off faze of the T&G. The heli proceeded across the runway and the tower informed me of what was happening right before my eyes... fortunately, I had plenty of room to climb over the path of the helicopter...

[carusoam]

Ideas that come to mind...

Don't be afraid to speak up early.

Expect humans to make mistakes, often.

If you don't know, ask.

The helicopter pilot will be equally appreciative of your efforts to see and avoid.

Don't be afraid to give extra position reports.  It kind of gives people a hint to what you are seeing.

If it were me, I'd probably asking if I was in the right place with the helicopter crossing my path...

I would have some trepidation turning left, as things could get more challenging to see to avoid...

Then there is the... 'uh Ramona helicopter, do you see the blue and white Mooney departing runway 27, Ramona? 

Followed by.... 'blue and white mooney turning left to 180°

Be ready to explain your actions, maybe you made a mistake.  Unlikely, flying runway heading...

I'm glad you took the time to share your challenge.  MS makes a great sounding board.

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

Thank you for posting Ario.  I love threads like this.  They make for great discussion, and I usually learn something.

[cliffy]

FAR 91.3 The Capt. and only the Capt. is always responsible and the final authority for the safe operation of the airplane. You did the right thing!

ATC is for traffic separation only. If they miss something it's your responsibility to correct it if you see it first.

Fly the airplane first, communicate last. Things happen fast, fly first, communicate last. 

Always remember, as good as they are, if a pilot makes a mistake, he can die, if the controller makes a mistake, the pilot can die. Not trying to malign controllers but everyone makes mistakes at times. We all have to be vigilant. 

One last item, as I used to teach my 121 students, NO is always an option. Just because ATC wants something done (like driving through a T storm), if the pilot thinks it's unsafe (and can back it up by HIS observations), NO is always an option. FAR 91.3

[bradp]

What Cliffy said. You are the final authority as to the safe operation of the aircraft.   You do whatever it takes to save your butt.  If someone has a question about it, that's ok.  

[Ario]

Thanks for the replies. I always learn from these discussions. 

 

[markejackson02]

I had the same happen at Austin Bergstrom several years ago.  The Governor's chopper was cleared for takeoff as I was rolling on 35R.  They lifted off to the west (hangar is northeast of the runway) and climbed right across the runway.  I saw them and turned right, no big deal, but there was no call from the tower or anything.  If I had been head down or not paying attention, politics in America could have been a lot different.

[kortopates]

You did fine. Two suggestions. Never hesitate to speak up and especially to the traffic that is encroaching on your airspace. Secondly, the RNM tower folks would have welcomed you up to discuss the issue where learning would have continued for both of you. But it's never too late to visit them and they are very friendly. Jon's ASRS suggestion is also a very good one. Let's hope that's the last time that happens but it's very doubtful.


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[thinwing]

Ramona /Gillespie airspace was a zoo 35 yrs ago when I was training...now I can just imagine..if you have a talk with the tower operator ,he may point out that Helis don't fly the same left pattern...and due to the terrain about ,may come in a bit higher ..tower was prob talking to him and even though he was approaching from your right ,he was probably going to auto  in to the taxi  way and not even cross the runway.Thats why the tower wanted you to continue out runway heading for a normal left x wind entry.Your early left turn to avoid what you saw as a conflict threw the tower off on his sequencing.I know the approaching heli looked scary as hell so your avoidance I am not faulting.Having flown both types...I know the approaches heli operators use to land at busy airports seem alarming.We usually fly approaches requested by Tower operators by loa.What may look like two aircraft on a collision course may suddenly resolve itself ,when the Heli appears to drop straight downward!As others have said...you turned to avoid the heli as you saw fit as PIC

[thinwing]

After looking at airport diagram..I notice two helipads 2000 ft down the right side of  runway 27.I bet that heli was making a normal approach for one of those helipads and when you were climbing out of runway 27 noticed him on your right coming over the hangers / business park but we're afraid he would continue over the runway for a collision.You don't mention tower coms to the heli..so I assume tower saw no conflict..just a normal mix of traffic types

[Mcoyne34]

As a controller, I would've told you about the helicopter. If I didn't know about the helo, and the pilot sees it and feels unsure, say something. Questioning doesn't hurt. It's your life on the line. 

[thinwing]

On November 5, 2016 at 5:50 AM, Mcoyne34 said:

As a controller, I would've told you about the helicopter. If I didn't know about the helo, and the pilot sees it and feels unsure, say something. Questioning doesn't hurt. It's your life on the line. 

Wouldn't that mean the the heli was no radio for the tower not to know about the heli inbound to the pad?Ramona is an air attack base and airport notes state those pads north of field are not for public use.That implys they are public agency pads as in cal Fire .Air port notes also issue a warning that air attack pilots use non standard approaches.I think there is more to this story however I agree he was in doubt so he took evasive action.Tower responds by basically saying " what the heck"I am guessing heli called in to tower ,got his ldg clearance ,than switched to his tactical frequency while Mooney driver was on ground freq taxing for takeoff.So it's possible he never heard tower talking to heli.Tower take off clearance should have included "Mooney nxxxxx cleared for takeoff 27 ,left traffic,be advised heli air attack 7 inbound to north pad."