Loaded 66 M20E up on Ebay...

[rbridges]

Quote: flight2000

I'm amazed he posted the response to the auction as well.  At least it's tagged that it is in fact flood damaged (and two gear up landings to boot).

Brian

[Seth]

Speaking of Karma . . . My Karma ran over your Dogma

 

 

[N601RX]

It looks like the plane has been removed from E-bay.  Wander what that happened?

[N33GG]

Kind of reminds me of two different airplanes I was looking at buying in the past, at two different times...not both together.  Before I decide to purchase, I always try to look up the aircraft records of previous owners and call them and ask about the history of the plane, regardless of how good looking, how clean the logs, and how well priced the aircraft is.  And since they don't own the airplane anymore, the previous owners will usually tell you everything, and more. 

The first aircraft had landed in a river, and was totally under water, and eventually removed by a crane.  The second aircraft had been in a hangar fire and had parts of it melted off.  Needless to say, I walked on both of these deals.  Most annoying, was the fact that there wasn't anything in the logs to give me a clue.  Nothing at all...clean logs.  Hmmmm.

Lots of detective work is always in order when buying airplanes, even if the seller assures you everything is OK.  And as for me, paying a little more for a clean aircraft without questionable history and possible mechanical issues is a no-brainer. 

[richardheitzman]

yes the bidding is closed. I am sure he will try again in the future. At least we stopped him for now. I swear I don't think he cares that he is going to kill someone. That is why they total a aircraft that is immersed in water. It never is the same again. He didn't tear down the engine, didn't send the avionics to a repair shop. Can you imagine owning this aircraft, in hard IFR and then poof, your glass panel in front of you dies, you power buss shorts out, and you are gloriously aflame cursing this fool on your way down.

[rbridges]

Quote: richardheitzman

yes the bidding is closed. I am sure he will try again in the future. At least we stopped him for now. I swear I don't think he cares that he is going to kill someone. That is why they total a aircraft that is immersed in water. It never is the same again. He didn't tear down the engine, didn't send the avionics to a repair shop. Can you imagine owning this aircraft, in hard IFR and then poof, your glass panel in front of you dies, you power buss shorts out, and you are gloriously aflame cursing this fool on your way down.

[GeorgePerry]

I have a friend that works for Ebay and reported the fraudulent auction to him.  I'm not sure if Ebay stopped the auction or the seller took it off based on the overwhelming disgust he recieved.  Either way, the truth is out there...score one for the power of the web.  Like I said Karma (with a k this time) has a way of catching up with people.

[scottfromiowa]

Well done.  Power to the MEpeople...

[DaV8or]

I have no problem with somebody buying a salvaged plane, putting it back together and getting it in the air again. In fact, I think it's a noble ambition. The problem I have is misrepresentaion and non full disclosure. This plane looks like it was a great plane once and maybe it could be again one day, but the buyer should have full understanding of the flood history.

This seller is kind of screwed in a way now. The truth is known about this airframe by Mooney fanatics and the plane is unusual, so it is easy to identify. Sooner or later it will turn up again elsewhere and we will get the word out again. If they do sell the plane to an unsuspecting new buyer, he will no doubt end up here or at some other Mooney place and eventually have the truth be known. At this point there is a very good basis for a law suit and possible criminal action.

If the seller is smart, he will now tell the truth and sell the plane with full disclosure about flood damage, so sell off the parts for salvage as it was intended.

We shall see and we'll be watching. The curved windows on an E is the give away, so even if the N number is changed or a new paint job, it's likely to get spotted.

[craigsteffen]

Ok, this is all fine and good, but the real question is, how does a prospective buyer prevent this from happening?

Someone earlier in this thread said that the engine hadn't been taken apart and put it back together.  Do you know that?  If that's the case, I wonder if it ran.  One thing I'd definitely want to do before even considering buying an airplane would be to fly it.  I wonder if someone there would go flying with a prospective customer? 

So did anyone happen to go look at it, or some other airplane from this same person or company?

So in inspecting something like this, is there a good way to look for immersion damage that's hard to hide?  Somewhere in the body or in the wheel wells or something?

[DaV8or]

Quote: craigsteffen

Ok, this is all fine and good, but the real question is, how does a prospective buyer prevent this from happening?

[FlyDave]

Quote: craigsteffen

Ok, this is all fine and good, but the real question is, how does a prospective buyer prevent this from happening?

Someone earlier in this thread said that the engine hadn't been taken apart and put it back together.  Do you know that?  If that's the case, I wonder if it ran.  One thing I'd definitely want to do before even considering buying an airplane would be to fly it.  I wonder if someone there would go flying with a prospective customer? 

So did anyone happen to go look at it, or some other airplane from this same person or company?

So in inspecting something like this, is there a good way to look for immersion damage that's hard to hide?  Somewhere in the body or in the wheel wells or something?

[jelswick]

I was that sucker too when I bought my '63 M20C.  It took a couple of years of very expensive annuals getting it up to snuff and then finally new paint and interior and I finally had a very, very nice M20C.  I learned my lesson the expensive way and knew better, plus a lot better informed with all of the information we have available to us now when I moved up to the J. 

[N601RX]

I had looked at this plane about 5 months ago when it was being sold as salvage and I recognized it immediately.  We decided against it because of all the steel tubing and welded assemblies used in a Mooney.  Mooney uses small screws to attach many pieces to the steel frame.  When submerged each of these screws provides a path for water to enter the tubing with no way to get out.  This is going to cause some serious problems in a few years.

I don't have a problem with people buying an insurance plane and fixing it as long as it is fully disclosed and documented.  Our F model was a insurance salvage in 2001.  One night it's hanger was broken into and the engine was removed.  They were obviously in a hurry and just cut all the controls, cables, and hoses in the process of removing the engine. They left the prop and exhaust laying on the floor.  The cost to replace everything exceeded 75% of the insured value and the insurance company totaled it and auctioned it off.  The plane was very clean other than no engine, and auctioned for $21,000. By auctioning the plane the insurance company was able to recoop a lot of their losses.The engine, hoses, and controls were all replaced with used items from another plane and it has been flying ever since. Everything was well documented in the logs and the seller was very upfront about what had happened.

 

 

[richardheitzman]

In a couple emails back and forth the seller told some of our list members that "they did not have to write in the log books about the immersion" plus, they said they did not send off the avionics, OR rebuild/check/teardown the engine. Also they aircraft was in THREE parts and so there was no mention of that in the log books according to another person. This person is a fraud, thief, and potential muderer by his actions.

Now, other salvaged aircraft, hail damage, crash damage, and others like the engine theft, they can be fixed, documented and disclosed and sold at a good profit.

Good job everyone. I appreciate the community effort and I hope this guy learns his lesson.

[rbridges]

Quote: N601RX

I had looked at this plane about 5 months ago when it was being sold as salvage and I recognized it immediately.  We decided against it because of all the steel tubing and welded assemblies used in a Mooney.  Mooney uses small screws to attach many pieces to the steel frame.  When submerged each of these screws provides a path for water to enter the tubing with no way to get out.  This is going to cause some serious problems in a few years.

I don't have a problem with people buying an insurance plane and fixing it as long as it is fully disclosed and documented.  Our F model was a insurance salvage in 2001.  One night it's hanger was broken into and the engine was removed.  They were obviously in a hurry and just cut all the controls, cables, and hoses in the process of removing the engine. They left the prop and exhaust laying on the floor.  The cost to replace everything exceeded 75% of the insured value and the insurance company totaled it and auctioned it off.  The plane was very clean other than no engine, and auctioned for $21,000. By auctioning the plane the insurance company was able to recoop a lot of their losses.The engine, hoses, and controls were all replaced with used items from another plane and it has been flying ever since. Everything was well documented in the logs and the seller was very upfront about what had happened.

 

 

[DaV8or]

Quote: richardheitzman

 I appreciate the community effort and I hope this guy learns his lesson.

[RJBrown]

 In 1993 I looked at M20K-0708. At the time it wore N1171J. In my investigation I discovered it had been underwater while in its hanger. The Mississippi river had flooded the airport where it lived. I ended up talking to the insurance adjuster at Avemco. He told me everything except what it sold for salvage. The seller had done some repairs but was trying to hide the real story. I called AOPA to inform them of what I knew and found they had closed a deal on that plane just the day before.

I continue to follow this plane. Each time it changed hands I would call the new owner to let them know the history. Most people were at least glad to know why it had the problems it did. The latest owner was angry at me when I called him. Said I was an arrogant busybody. I told him that each prior owner knew and so would each subsequent one.

 The new N number is N30EV.

Consider this a submarine warning.

I also notified the FAA and they could not care less. So much for protecting the public.  

[thinwing]

Interesting...I see the auction has ended with zero bids...youd think someone would place a bid if not just for parts....a lot of salvage on this bird...avionics...nope...engine..a big maybe...prop..maybe...really a lot of cores but advertising it as airworthy...incredible!!!

[flight2000]

I saw there were actually two bids at one point before it got pulled in day 2 of a 7 day auction.  Not sure if the seller did it or eBay yanked it.  George said he had a friend that works for them and that may have been enough. 

Brian