Would like advice on this 1980 M20J

[Stetson20]

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2197072&s-type=aircraft

Thanks to Matt (Guitarmaster) for his thoughts. Now looking for thoughts from the forum. Reminder that I'm looking for a reliable IFR platform. Most of my flying would be between GRR area and MDW as a commuter for Southwest. The airport where I plan to hangar the airplane has GPS approaches. Occasional pleasure flights with my wife. 

I know the TT is low for the airplane's age. I plan a thorough pre-buy, to include pulling a cylinder. Anybody recommend a good Mooney specialist near Fairfield NJ?

I'm awaiting approval for financing. I have not made an offer on this particular airplane. From discussions with Matt, I am trying to get the most airplane (airframe, powerplant & avionics) for my money- upgrades already completed. I'm not a "tinkerer" and a project plane isn't my thing. 

Would appreciate any and all thoughts, both pro and con. Also, what would YOU offer the seller- assuming no major deficiencies. 

Fire away!

Roy (Stetson20)

[jetdriven]

The only upgrade to that plane is a g430W.  The entire rest of the panel and interior is 1980.  And new paint.  But IDK of that's so much an upgrade as somethings that should be done every 20 years.  The engine is original 1980 as well and, well, it will run well until something happens then that gets expensive. 

[gsxrpilot]

I've not been pricing J's.  I know C's, E's and K's ;-) The plane has enough equipment for IFR but not much in the way of redundancy, and looks great except for the original interior. But that's minor. I probably wouldn't go through the expense of pulling a cylinder. I'd get a fresh oil change and oil analysis and do a compression check.  That will tell you a lot about the engine, but of course, not everything.  I'd also want to know how many hours were flown in the last year. Is it currently being flown? Also what is the useful load? 

I'd probably immediately remove the KNS 80, KY 197, ADF, and the KT76A. Replace it with a GTX330ES or GTX345, and a 530W.

Then just go fly it.

If it were me, I'd probably look for one with better avionics and fewer hours on the engine, and worse paint/interior. But that's just me.

 

[KLRDMD]

First, the engine is 36 years old. I would budget for an overhaul.  Also, the 430 isn't WAAS, so there's another $3,500+. I'm not a fan of three blade props on four cylinder Lycomings and why was the prop replaced 700 hours ago ? The ADF and the KNS80 are boat anchors, but you can pull them and get some useful load back. My opinion, given the risk you're taking with the engine, it is a $60k airplane.

The "F" model listed as coming on market in the for sale section is worth looking into.

 

[Stetson20]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

The only upgrade to that plane is a g430W.  The entire rest of the panel and interior is 1980.  And new paint.  But IDK of that's so much an upgrade as somethings that should be done every 20 years.  The engine is original 1980 as well and, well, it will run well until something happens then that gets expensive. 

Yeah I think I'm falling in love with a paint job. And I really dig that interior. BUT.. P&I aren't gonna get me to/from MDW with crappy weather. 

[Stetson20]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

First, the engine is 36 years old. I would budget for an overhaul.  Also, the 430 isn't WAAS, so there's another $3,500+. I'm not a fan of three blade props on four cylinder Lycomings and why was the prop replaced 700 hours ago ? The ADF and the KNS80 are boat anchors, but you can pull them and get some useful load back. My opinion, given the risk you're taking with the engine, it is a $60k airplane.

The "F" model listed as coming on market in the for sale section is worth looking into.

 

Got any pics and a spec sheet? As I wrote to others here, I think I just kinda fell in love with that paint job and interior. Back to the search! 

[Stetson20]

52 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

My biggest concern would be the fact that the engine probably hasn't been opened up in 36 years, but you are mitigating that to at least some degree with your pre-buy.  My thoughts, in no particular order ...

- Make sure that it has been hangared.  Hangar queens have their own risks but ramp queens aren't a good buy at almost any price, in my opinion.  If it has been tied down in New Jersey for years I would walk away.  Been there, done that with a previous airplane that I owned and I wish that someone had given me that advice.  

- Make sure the autopilot works in the pre-buy. 

- I am not a fan of the three blade Hartzell prop because most J's are at the front of the CG envelope with just two normal sized guys up front even without the added weight of the three blader.  

- I personally really like the red paint job and don't even mind the somewhat-dated red interior, but some will balk at it.  Mine looks very similar, actually. 

- See if the tanks have ever been resealed and by whom, obviously. 

- The spinner appears to be nicely aligned with the cowling, which is a good sign that someone has been paying attention to the little details on the maintenance front.  It is nicely polished, too, which is another good sign that someone cares.

- The yoke shafts appear to be shiny, which is a good sign that it has been kept inside in a relatively dry environment.  Ditto on the interior royalite.  It is not yellowed, which would be an indication of UV exposure. 

- Check on the age of the landing gear "donuts" for another indication of regular maintenance. 

- Check the nose gear truss for damage from the tow limits having been exceeded.  

- Insure that SB208 has been completed on the steel cage, especially if it has ever spent significant time outside.

- It is probably overpriced in light of the engine age and time.

All in all it looks very clean to me, but even if the engine holds out you will probably end up putting money into that panel for redundancy and modernization if you plan to regularly fly it IFR.  Good luck!

Jim

       

I'm seeing J models in the 90k price range with modern avionics panels. Matt gave me some good advice- get a plane with the avionics I want already installed. Mid time engines are less concerning than one that is low time compared to airframe age. His first reaction was "Better have a good engine pre-purchase inspection. Doesn't look like it flies much." All good advice.

And I like your taste in P&I! That's why I like this one so much. 

Roy

Edited September 7, 2016 by Stetson20
"advice" not "advise"

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Stetson20 said:

Got any pics and a spec sheet? As I wrote to others here, I think I just kinda fell in love with that paint job and interior. Back to the search! 

It isn't my ad but if you click on the link you'll be taken to the post that will allow you to obtain that information, I'm sure.

[Piloto]

Looks like a reasonable price. Go for a 30 minutes flight and after check the belly for oil leaks and exhaust stain color. Check for oil in bottom plugs.

José  

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Stetson20 said:

Yeah I think I'm falling in love with a paint job. And I really dig that interior. BUT.. P&I aren't gonna get me to/from MDW with crappy weather. 

Neither will a straight G430 with LNAV only mins, and it must be upgraded to WAAS if you are going to use it as a position source for the 2020 mandate. And thats the only upgrade in the panel.

 

You can always do an ILS, but ILS's are getting far between, and the ones that have ILS's often, curiously, have 7$ avgas.

Edited September 8, 2016 by jetdriven

[carusoam]

If going to visit Fairfield.   Jim (?) has a C there as well, that is in the process of listing for sale.

I don't recognize this J,  not a member of NJMP...(?)

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

If you're seriously thinking about using it for a commuter you may need to be thinking about a TKS equipped model with an autopilot and a stormscope.  You're going to have a lot of no go for GA days up in Chicago.  

Unfortunately (or fortunately dependent on your perspective), that plane should be priced as a runout.  For model year and equipment you'd be looking at somewhere around 60-69k for the airframe- just a guess.   The benefits of that particular A/F are the alt hold AP and relatively new glass. 

[Browncbr1]

15 hours ago, Stetson20 said:

Yeah I think I'm falling in love with a paint job. And I really dig that interior. BUT.. P&I aren't gonna get me to/from MDW with crappy weather. 

Someone said once, beware the Sherwin Williams overhaul!

[Jerry 5TJ]

At this point all C through J models are about equal -- in that they are all 35 to 55 years old.  How they have been maintained / upgraded / treated makes each one unique.  

If my budget were $90K I'd find the best $60K plane -- avionics, engine, airframe -- and bank the other $30K:  You'll spend it in the next 2 years, I can almost guarantee it. 

A Mooney should be a good GRR to MDW commuter.  Happy hunting!

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah, I just sold a C that would have met this mission except for TKS. 

I'd look for an engine with more that 500 but less then a 1000 hours. I'd also want a WAAS GPS with Stec30/alt or better. GPSS and ADSB would be a bonus.

[mooniac15u]

16 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

At this point all C through J models are about equal -- in that they are all 35 to 55 years old.  How they have been maintained / upgraded / treated makes each one unique. 

The last J models were made in 1998.  The early ones are probably comparable to the vintage fleet in many ways but there are newer ones that haven't been modified much, if at all.

[AndyFromCB]

If you say reliable IFR ride around Great Lakes region, I say TKS. Also, 

[Jerry 5TJ]

3 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

The last J models were made in 1998.  The early ones are probably comparable to the vintage fleet in many ways but there are newer ones that haven't been modified much, if at all.

Ok, you're right.  

I should have said "virtually all the C thru J models are 35 to 55 years old"

 

[Marauder]

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2197072&s-type=aircraft

Thanks to Matt (Guitarmaster) for his thoughts. Now looking for thoughts from the forum. Reminder that I'm looking for a reliable IFR platform. Most of my flying would be between GRR area and MDW as a commuter for Southwest. The airport where I plan to hangar the airplane has GPS approaches. Occasional pleasure flights with my wife. 

I know the TT is low for the airplane's age. I plan a thorough pre-buy, to include pulling a cylinder. Anybody recommend a good Mooney specialist near Fairfield NJ?

I'm awaiting approval for financing. I have not made an offer on this particular airplane. From discussions with Matt, I am trying to get the most airplane (airframe, powerplant & avionics) for my money- upgrades already completed. I'm not a "tinkerer" and a project plane isn't my thing. 

Would appreciate any and all thoughts, both pro and con. Also, what would YOU offer the seller- assuming no major deficiencies. 

Fire away!

Roy (Stetson20)

Too slow Roy. This one is in a pre-buy already. Guy buying it from my airport. I'll be flying it over for him if it comes through the PPI okay.

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[mooniac15u]

Just now, Marauder said:

Too slow Roy. This one is in a pre-buy already. Guy buying it from my airport. I'll be flying it over for him if it comes through the PPI okay.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Be careful flying that J with its extra speed.  You may want to throttle back a little so it flies more like what you're used to.

[Tankinbarber]

Get a rocket!!!! it is life changing and for 180k your getting the performance of a 400k airplane. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[Marauder]

Just now, Marauder said: Too slow Roy. This one is in a pre-buy already. Guy buying it from my airport. I'll be flying it over for him if it comes through the PPI okay.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Be careful flying that J with its extra speed.  You may want to throttle back a little so it flies more like what you're used to.

Actually I was thinking I would need to dive periodically to make sure I felt like I wasn't flying a Studebaker.

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[mooniac15u]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Actually I was thinking I would need to dive periodically to make sure I felt like I wasn't flying a Studebaker.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Exactly my point.  Your F is only doing 200 kts there.  You'll be flying a 201.

[mooniac15u]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Actually I was thinking I would need to dive periodically to make sure I felt like I wasn't flying a Studebaker.

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BTW, I think we would all appreciate it if you would start using some of those photoshop skills on the pictures of your girlfriends.

[Stetson20]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

Too slow Roy. This one is in a pre-buy already. Guy buying it from my airport. I'll be flying it over for him if it comes through the PPI okay.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Tell him I love the P&I. I'm looking for a more modern panel, though. Congrats to him if he buys it!