PIREP-LASER SHOP CHARGES

[kj2016]

I am done posting on the topic! If anyone has any question they can send me email and I will respond as honestly as I can.

once again thanks for the feedback 

 

[BillC]

59 minutes ago, Tom said:

  

I'll pay your bill in total if you agree to completely get out of aviation and agree to never let anyone know that you tainted a Mooney with your presence in it.

 

 

Once again I find idiots on this site that slam someone for writing about a problem he had. Until you know the complete story you need to keep your mouth shut.  Tom... If your ever called for jury duty, do justice a favor and turn it down.

By the way, if you have so much money to throw around why don't you support this website?

[Zwaustin]

I am pretty open minded on business reviews and could not care less whether positive or negative as long as they are honest so thanks for your "review". In my business we survey every client and we ask for honest feedback to learn from negative experiences. This approach doesn't yield all positive reviews but it allows us to serve the customer better and we always maintain an A+ with the BBB. Social media is no place to trash a business (not saying that you are) but reviews are allowed on a forum, stick the facts in your "review" and see if the business will make it right. With that being said, to completely reseal both sides is about 7500 so your a little bit over half of that with doing just the aux. Mine were both done at weep no more in 2010 and are still holding strong. Sometimes (always?!!) you get what you pay for especially in aviation. 

[RLCarter]

While I cant see exactly what all the charges are (no itemized charges from LASAR) I can tell you this,

a)      always get a copy of the repair order and/or estimate when dropping off

b)      place a reasonable cap above the est. when dropping off for repairs

c)      get a copy of the repair order with the cap when dropping off

 

I have dealt with LASAR multiple times over the past few years and found them to very straight forward on their dealings, on a few occasions I did price shop if I thought the price was excessive and if the pricing came in about the same I went with LASAR if they were in the ballpark. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions, and I fully understand being ticked off if your bill was 10X what you were expecting. Repairs such as sealing a leak or an intermittent electrical problem or chasing an oil leak is a difficult task to put a number on, when I had to do something that wasn’t cut-n-dried I generally (like most shops) shot high that way I had a little wiggle room. Slamming a MSC on here probably wont get you much help and certainly wont help with any future issues you may have. There are two sides to every story, yours is partially told and LASAR’ side we’ll probably never hear. Good luck on getting this resolved, but a forum isn’t the place to start.

Edited June 27, 2016 by RLCarter

[Tom]

Just now, BillC said:

Once again I find idiots on this site that slam someone for writing about a problem he had. Until you know the complete story you need to keep your mouth shut.  Tom... If your ever called for jury duty, do justice a favor and turn it down.

There is no "complete story" to be told.  Nothing is in dispute other than the owner's willingness to pay for having his plane fixed.  LASAR fixed the damn tank.  The initial estimate was low for what ended up needing to be done.  It's a freaking airplane.  It's precisely in this type of situation why going to a place like LASAR is the way to go, and why you pay for what you get.  "Justice" is other people not having to subsidize the OP's fix next time they are at LASAR because of this tightwad.  If LASAR was crooked, the story would be different, but LASAR isn't.

Just now, BillC said:

By the way, if you have so much money to throw around why don't you support this website?

Contributing requires putting personal information into the payment (i.e. can't do anonymously).   

Just now, Zwaustin said:

to completely reseal both sides is about 7500

What is with the $7500 industry standard price?  It's being thrown about like it's a fact.  I understand Paul Beck does great work and certainly do not mean to imply anything negative about his work, but who on this board entertains a client who comes in and insists on only paying the price that the prospective client could pay if the prospective client went to that corner of the US (or world) where the board-member's service could be done for less money.  Does everyone on this board guarantee price-matching for all their services in their lines of work?  I think not.

[Zwaustin]

Just now, Tom said:

There is no "complete story" to be told.  Nothing is in dispute other than the owner's willingness to pay for having his plane fixed.  LASAR fixed the damn tank.  The initial estimate was low for what ended up needing to be done.  It's a freaking airplane.  It's precisely in this type of situation why going to a place like LASAR is the way to go, and why you pay for what you get.  "Justice" is other people not having to subsidize the OP's fix next time they are at LASAR because of this tightwad.  If LASAR was crooked, the story would be different, but LASAR isn't.

Contributing requires putting personal information into the payment (i.e. can't do anonymously).   

What is with the $7500 industry standard price?  It's being thrown about like it's a fact.  I understand Paul Beck does great work and certainly do not mean to imply anything negative about his work, but who on this board entertains a client who comes in and insists on only paying the price that the prospective client could pay if the prospective client went to that corner of the US (or world) where the board-member's service could be done for less money.  Does everyone on this board guarantee price-matching for all their services in their lines of work?  I think not.

It is what others have quoted from their repairs and about what was charged for my repair in 2010 on a 231. This is for a full reseal so it is pretty standard and not billed based on chasing a single leak. 

[Tom]

28 minutes ago, Bob said:

It is stuff like this, the back and forth pissing contest that makes me want to sign out for two or three weeks.  The question I ask myself is "what little part of this is constructive"?

Bob,
People are wired differently.  Some people witness what they perceive to be immoral acts and respond one way, other people witness the same event and do no see an immoral act and/or rationalize things differently.  No one can legitimately claim to have the superior moral compass.  In this instance the OP sees it one way, I see it another.  It's fine if you feel more comfortable on the fence.  If the OP is right, he's saving you and others from LASAR ripping you and others off.  If the counter-argument is right, you and others will benefit from this pissing match by not having to subsidize the OP's tank fix. 
It's funny how people hate ATLA and govt regulations but they feel real uncomfortable about self-policing.
Maybe (tangentially) these articles can introduce some better understanding of pissing matches and thus could be constructive, if tangentially:
https://news.brown.edu/articles/2011/12/moralilty
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/26/health/brain-moral-judgments/

 

 

[carqwik]

How do you know it's not simply just a case of a fat finger error - that is someone billed you for a full reseal by picking the wrong item off the menu?  The billiing gal doesn't know what work was done...it's just what comes off the menu.  Probably just a clerical error....

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by carqwik

[Hector]

I think there is a reasonable expectation that if you are quoted X for a job the bill should not come in at 10X without a conversation taking place to let the customer know that the repair is going to be much more than originally quoted. I think it's only fair. We don't know the full story here but I would certainly have started by sitting down with the shop to try to figure out what happened. Maybe they simply forgot to make that phone call but the tank did need a full strip and reseal in which case the price is in the ball park. I might not be happy that they did the work without my approval but given their reputation I would probably be receptive that the work was needed and this is just a case of miscommunication. Again, have no idea what happened here but I would not trash the shop until I'm certain they took me for a ride. Based on all I have heard about LASAR that seems unlikely.

[Bob]

20 hours ago, Tom said:

Bob,
People are wired differently.  Some people witness what they perceive to be immoral acts and respond one way, other people witness the same event and do no see an immoral act and/or rationalize things differently.  No one can legitimately claim to have the superior moral compass.  In this instance the OP sees it one way, I see it another.  It's fine if you feel more comfortable on the fence.  If the OP is right, he's saving you and others from LASAR ripping you and others off.  If the counter-argument is right, you and others will benefit from this pissing match by not having to subsidize the OP's tank fix. 
It's funny how people hate ATLA and govt regulations but they feel real uncomfortable about self-policing.
Maybe (tangentially) these articles can introduce some better understanding of pissing matches and thus could be constructive, if tangentially:
https://news.brown.edu/articles/2011/12/moralilty
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/26/health/brain-moral-judgments/

 

 

Not sure why you are trying to educate me!

My post was simply a gentle way of saying "GROW UP" to some that will never understand.

 

 

[Danb]

8 hours ago, BillC said:

Once again I find idiots on this site that slam someone for writing about a problem he had. Until you know the complete story you need to keep your mouth shut.  Tom... If your ever called for jury duty, do justice a favor and turn it down.

By the way, if you have so much money to throw around why don't you support this website?

Bill I couldn't agree with you anymore. If in fact there was a serious problem with a shop it is the duty to inform our forum of potential problems based the event. This is why good companies have us critique there work in an effort to strive to be better. I only go to quality MSC's ie Weber's great company, DMax great company, Premiere a great company when I went there. BUT if I were screwed I'd alert my comrades of the problem.

It seems like we're slamming the customer, he does act like a jerk the way he responds with he can buy and sell us, who cares how much money he has, all that matters is if he had a real problem and we  were alerted. 

He's losing sympathy regarding letting us know he is well off, Pauls in a wheelchair very weak on his part etc., I wouldn't want him as a buddy but I want to know who is taking advantage of us Mooney drivers. 

I have a hard time separating his personality or lack of with the business aspect of airplane repair/ maintenance. But I have

I hope he continues to let us know of how the situation gets resolved, he stated he is done, that's a shame not to inform us of problems with a shop. Some of us don't have a lot of money therefore it's important we go to a shop that's fair and honest.

Now I guess it time to bash me for supporting the position of alerting us to potential problems with repair stations.

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

I think all anyone is saying, in support of LASAR is that for the hundreds of us who have had business dealings with Paul and LASAR, this is unheard of. Therefore it's hard to believe this one account. Since we don't have the whole story, only the customer's side of it, but weighed against the mountain of our own experiences with LASAR, this customer's account seems very suspect. 

I could believe a "mis-communication/mis-understanding" situation. (I had a mis-understanding with DMax that cost me an AMU or two, but I would never throw that back on the shop. I'll take it as the cost of tuition for me, and continue to go back for the excellent service provided.) But the customer's implication that the LASAR shop is fraudulent or crooked and looking to take advantage of his wealth, is preposterous and not supported by the collective weight of this group's evidence and experience.  Members on this forum spout ignorance and incorrect information all the time. I'm guilty of it myself and am quickly humbled when set straight by the collective wisdom here. But when statements are used to trash a reputation that has been many, many years in the building, it's just not tolerated, and shouldn't be.

Anyone reading this thread who then decides to go to some other shop instead of LASAR for work, is a fool.

[FlyWalt]

10 hours ago, BillC said:

Once again I find idiots on this site that slam someone for writing about a problem he had. Until you know the complete story you need to keep your mouth shut.  Tom... If your ever called for jury duty, do justice a favor and turn it down.

By the way, if you have so much money to throw around why don't you support this website?

I "TOTALLY AGREE" with Bill on this. 

And let me state another fact of life, after being screwed over by two shops who did POOR WORK and FAILED TO RESOLVE ISSUES that they charged me for, I can say honestly that there are NOT ENOUGH OF YOU who are willing to RAISE RED FLAGS for the rest of us. There are too many general A&P shops out there that are willing to take on work that they can not do well.

As a result of those two experiences, I only go to Mooney Specialist Shops now. However, I would add caution as I was WOEFULLY OVERCHARGED by an MSC in April for between annual maintenance. You need to be careful with any shop as they are all motivated by your checkbook and its ability to support an overpriced but beloved speed machine.

[StevenL757]

All,

In an effort to take a small piece of ownership here, I've obviously stirred some emotion by asking Kuljit to provide information to help answer some questions.

I hope it's universally-known that my intent was (and is) not to speak or advocate (directly or indirectly) on behalf of, or make a judgment for or against, any shop or company mentioned here.  I was simply looking to clarify the information originally-presented, give guidance, and encourage others to offer the same.

My understanding of this site is that it exists to help provide education, guidance, support, and an overall tone of advocating safe flying to our community.

[Danb]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

All,

In an effort to take a small piece of ownership here, I've obviously stirred some emotion by asking Kuljit to provide information to help answer some questions.

I hope it's universally-known that my intent was (and is) not to speak or advocate (directly or indirectly) on behalf of, or make a judgment for or against, any shop or company mentioned here.  I was simply looking to clarify the information originally-presented, give guidance, and encourage others to offer the same.

My understanding of this site is that it exists to help provide education, guidance, support, and an overall tone of advocating safe flying to our community.

Steven I couldn't agree more. Instead of using the info that's provided to us things are looked at through narrow glasses, jeez I go to that shop, they treated me fairly, they were nice to me. The guy saying they did something wrong is a lying pack of ^%€#.. Come on guys be objective if you were cheated or not handled properly I assume you put your tail between your legs and go home with a smile on your face.

[N601RX]

I've ordered many parts from Lasar and have always been happy with the transactions.  I would normally be very skeptical of anyone who had negative comments to make about them.

However the OP posted a bill from Lasar that clearly shows the estimated total was $884.57 but the bill total was $4334.87.  If this is as it seems I think most of us would be upset also if it happened to us and there was not any additional communications from them before the work was done. 

[StevenL757]

9 minutes ago, N601RX said:

.....the OP posted a bill from Lasar that clearly shows the estimated total was $884.57 but the bill total was $4334.87.  If this is as it seems I think most of us would be upset also if it happened to us and there was not any additional communications from them before the work was done. 

Agree completely.  One should expect that kind of basic feedback from ANY shop with whom we engage.

[peevee]

BS aside, I would be wary of canceling the charges for fear of a mechanics lien against the airplane. Does it work about the same on planes as it does cars?

[Bob_Belville]

33 minutes ago, daver328 said:

 

I chose to keep my one negative experience private, until now. 

I am only posting this because I like to disagree with Tom. 

Dave, isn't there a big difference? You had a problem with a vendor. The vendor acknowledged it and made it right.

(I received a throttle cable from McFarlane that had not been milled and drilled for a limit switch, they took responsibility and sent me a correct cable via next day air.)

Mistakes happen. McFarlane did good and I'm a fan. It sounds like LASAR did the same in your case.

What the original post did that you and I did not do is go public, apparently without giving the vendor the chance to address the problem. If he complained to LASAR and they stiff armed him he has not told us that.

Several of us have a suspicion that there at least one other side to this tale of woe.    

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Tom said:

-LASAR did my prebuy which I had converted to a blank-check annual.  They repaired/replaced some stuff, deferred other stuff with tolerance advice to monitor.  Completely honest, pleasure to do business with. 

-The OP seems like the kind of guy who'd buy a Bentley but skip the dealership maintenance to save a few dollars, then threaten to sue the poor corner gas station mechanic for over-charging him.  The beauty of going to a place like LASAR is that when you get a $4k bill, you know that your bird needed $4k worth of work.  That $4k worth of work maybe could have been done a little cheaper down the street, but not by someone who knows Mooneys so well.  There's a greater chance that down the street you'd get a $6K bill for people learning on your plane AND end up with a sub-par job in the end.

-My home IA tells me stories about guys like this.  There's a special place in heaven for IAs who have to deal with these whiney new-money clowns who have no appreciation for the true value of what an honest and skilled shop provides.  

I'll pay your bill in total if you agree to completely get out of aviation and agree to never let anyone know that you tainted a Mooney with your presence in it.

 

 

Wow, that's quite a response.  I've re-read Kuljit's posts above, you're sure reading it differently.  The only thing disagreeable is his use of "fraud".   

Clarence

[Danb]

Clarence your in the business and I agree with your response that using the f word should not have occurred without facts supporting it, it's a great way to get sued in civil court, being in business I'd personally pursue the defaminination of my name, that being said the man should alert us to an issue as strong as his. Many including Bob thinks he needs to provide the other side of the story,why its not our business. His duty is to advise us of a situation such as this so we can individually make a determination if we want to use the vendor in the future. Many are very happy with Lasar that's fine, but when evaluating the use of a vendor I want to know the good and bad. Just with this little survey for the lack of a better term, we found out Laser may have had problems with KJ, who started this fire and with Daver, in just a few hours there have been two problems I suspect more. Instead of thanking these two guys just string them up, why the heck tell your group there may be a problem just let us walk the plank.

[DonMuncy]

I have tried to stay out of this discussion because I am admittedly biased. I have known Paul and Shery for quite a few years and consider them my friends. Being in Texas, I have not utilized their shop, but have purchased parts, etc. from them.

From knowing them and knowing their reputation from many other pilots and plane owners, I am highly skeptical of anyone claiming they are dishonest or unfair.

It also worries me when I see this serious attack on any shop, for fear that a person new to the forum might see the post and form an opinion without knowing more.

Naturally, I have no knowledge of the facts of this situation and thus will not say anyone is right or wrong. However, I believe Paul is most likely on top of most things that take place in their shop, and have extreme difficulty believing that the transaction would go down as the OP reported, and would expect that, if given the opportunity, they would make it right.

I would be really interested in hearing how this finally plays out.

[Bennett]

I have taken both of my Mooneys (past and present) to Paul's shop; LASAR because of his vast knowledge about Mooneys. I consider him a true Mooney Guru, and because I trust his integrity. If Paul told me some project had taken more hours then either of us expected, I would have just swallowed hard, and paid the bill. I cannot believe he would ever pad a bill. And I know that on some of his "exploratory" work on my airplanes he has Undercharged hours and eaten the expense because it was part of a learning process. Even gurus can be stymied for a while.

LASAR and inexpensive are not part of the same sentence, but really good workmanship does not come cheaply. When I fly I want to know that the shop I went to didn't cut any corners just to meet an estimate. These old aircraft require high maintenance and if I can't afford to have the work done competently, I'll quit flying.

I have no problem discussing billings with Paul, and over the years he has made a few adjustments where I felt some charge or another was a bit high - mostly parts where their wholesaler might be higher than a firm like Spruce. This is a long way from accusations of Fraud.

[Yetti]

I thought my IA was undercharging me for the annual so I wrote the check for more.  That said I still think prices some west coast shops charge for annuals is high.  But probably not too high for the market they serve and all the crap regulation they have to put up with in CA

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Yetti said:

I thought my IA was undercharging me for the annual so I wrote the check for more.  That said I still think prices some west coast shops charge for annuals is high.  But probably not too high for the market they serve and all the crap regulation they have to put up with in CA

I'm accepting applications from customers like you.

Clarence