Small Children and Avgas: Lead exposure

[1524J]

2 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Anyone born in the 50s-70s will have been exposed to tons  of lead in car petrol (gas), can someone please point out to me as a 60s child how this has affected me, because to be honest i dont think it has.  

Are we worrying too much and moli kodling our children too much.  I personally think (as someone who ised to eat coal as a baby)  that unless you are bathing your child and  asking them to drink thenstuff then the lead factor is irrelevant.   With regards to  CO, it will affect you exactly the same as it will the children so you need to have a co alarm in the aircraft and if it goes off, get out FAST. 

Andrew

I think that's part of the problem.....it affected us and we don't realize it.......or perhaps it was running behind the mosquito fogging trucks.....or maybe drinking from the water hose in the backyard.....falling off my bicycle and not having a helmet on......the list goes on and on.....

[Seth]

Thanks for all the responses!

I really delved into the effect of lead on a developing brain and it is amazing what has been correlated.

So, my plan as mentioned would be to not let her be near where I dump the tanks and to discard of that fuel away from where she is located.

I do have a Carbon Monixide digital monitor in the aircraft and I don't have a issue with too much except just like others when sitting place for a while or during taxi with the door open.

Thanks again.

-Seth

 

 

 

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

The human race has been around millions of years with far more dangerous things around than 100ll, dont worry about it.  

I appreciate what you wrote very much.  But the jist that caveman didn't worry about it so why should we argument isn't necessarily comforting when the life expectancy of caveman was 25, who died of all sorts of things.  Diet, infections from minor wounds, pneumonia, getting eaten by a wolf, etc, etc.  When I was a kid, no one wore a seat belt.  I didn't wear a seat belt.  I rode around in my dad's VW bug in that way back area (as we called it) behind the seats - can you imagine if the car was rear ended in even a relatively minor rear end accident?  We didn't worry about it.  Does this mean I therefore do not wear my seatbelt now?  Or put the seatbelt on my kids?  Or try not to poison myself or my kids with lead?

[Amelia]

My MD copilot thinks not letting the baby drink 100LL should be sufficient. I suspect the sensible precautions you already take will be fine. Earphones are a good thing if you can sell them or tiny soft earplugs. I can guarantee the nice 2-hour naps in the airplane will be far more beneficial both to the wee one and parents than 20 fussy, uncomfortable hours in a car. My kids endured a lot of cross-country airplane hours before kiddie headsets were available, and they suffered no ill effects ... that I noticed. Also, only slightly tongue-in-cheek, mild hypoxia and/or Bonine seemed to provide much better sibling rivalry reduction than dire threats from cranky mom in the driver's seat. 

[DXB]

I fully agree with everyone commenting that a few common sense measures to limit exposure is all that is needed for pilots and their kid passengers, and there's no reason at all to freak out about it.  At the same time, the substantive impact on cognitive development of even low level lead exposures in children is amply supported by evidence accumulated over decades. This research can't be negated by individual anecdotes of having grown up when leaded fuel was widely used and feeling fine.  Banning lead in auto gas in the US was a very good thing.  It's a shame we haven't been able to get it out of Avgas.   

What really worries me is the tendency to equate real knowledge on topics like this with the sea of heath-related click bait BS on internet or the daily false representation in the media of every crappy correlative study suggesting this or that thing is good or bad for you. Sharing blame with the media are our educational system and poor communication by the scientific community itself.  To help maximize thread creep, here's an absolutely brilliant bit by John Oliver on this topic.Seriously, if you haven't seen it yet,  I personally guarantee it's worth your time.

 

[PMcClure]

I agree eliminating lead in fuel is a good thing and agree even small amounts of lead in children is dangerous. I wonder though if there was any real impact on children health by eliminating lead in fuel. How often were children exposed to lead from fuel. Not that it really matters, I am not advocating to bring it back or keep it in AVGAS. Lead paint perhaps has more impact on children than lead in fuel. 

[mooniac15u]

2 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

I agree eliminating lead in fuel is a good thing and agree even small amounts of lead in children is dangerous. I wonder though if there was any real impact on children health by eliminating lead in fuel. How often were children exposed to lead from fuel. Not that it really matters, I am not advocating to bring it back or keep it in AVGAS. Lead paint perhaps has more impact on children than lead in fuel. 

It wasn't direct exposure to the fuel but rather the accumulated lead in the environment. There have been estimates that the average IQ of children in the U.S. has increased by 6-7 points as a result of banning leaded gasoline. 

[PMcClure]

32 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

It wasn't direct exposure to the fuel but rather the accumulated lead in the environment. There have been estimates that the average IQ of children in the U.S. has increased by 6-7 points as a result of banning leaded gasoline. 

No wonder my kids think they are smarter than me! I told my son the other day that when I was 20, I thought I knew it all and by the time I was 35, I realized I knew nothing. He asked me about now (45) and I told him I didn't need to know anything anymore, I had three teenagers to tell me everything I needed to know. LOL!!

[Jeff_S]

I was going to mention the John Oliver segment as well. He has a way of addressing serious topics in a hilarious manner. I recently saw that segment, and one of the key points he made that I think is relevant here (and corresponds to what most people have already said in this post) is that the number one threat of lead poisoning to children is going to come from paint chips and older buildings where lead was used in many construction materials.

Edit: No, I realized the above John Oliver segment wasn't the one to which I referred. It is here:

 

[Tom]

3 hours ago, Amelia said:

 Also, only slightly tongue-in-cheek, mild hypoxia and/or Bonine seemed to provide much better sibling rivalry reduction than dire threats from cranky mom in the driver's seat. 

You and your co-pilot need to run through the primum no nocere checklist a few times.  There is reason to not be so cavalier about mild hypoxia (as well as non-hypoxic hypobaria).    
e.g.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25164539

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24819068
 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Tom
Links corrected

[Amelia]

Oh, dear, Tom... How cavalier of everybody who has driven so heedlessly over high Rocky Mountain passes, while their children dozed peacefully in the back seat. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. I have done that terrible thing, too. Should have invested in a pressurized car. Unfortunately, I didn't have the benefit of your expertise and stern admonishment way back then, and the poor little dears lived to reproduce despite our idiotic abuse. BTW, we have never flown at altitudes requiring oxygen without providing it for everybody, and monitoring them. But, do un-wad thy skivvies long enough to realize that kids get much less quarrelsome at 8000 feet, at least ours did, without noticeable lasting CNS deficit.  

[N201MKTurbo]

17 hours ago, 1524J said:

I think that's part of the problem.....it affected us and we don't realize it.......or perhaps it was running behind the mosquito fogging trucks.....or maybe drinking from the water hose in the backyard.....falling off my bicycle and not having a helmet on......the list goes on and on.....

Wow, I did all those things! Just think about how awesome I would be if My brain wasn't completely turned to mush by my childhood!

[Tom]

28 minutes ago, Amelia said:

 But, do un-wad thy skivvies long enough to realize that kids get much less quarrelsome at 8000 feet, at least ours did, without noticeable lasting CNS deficit.  

Seth is the kind of parent that asked for advice about hypoxia.  Some parents try harder.  You shouldn't project your parenting values onto someone who is more conservative with their children's health than you were--at least that's what I was taught.

If you had taken the time to read the non-hypoxic hypobaric study AND appreciate the neuro development going on in a one year-old you'd probably not joke about hypoxia and you probably would ask for some altitude information (assuming that you believe in science).

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

You and your co-pilot need to run through the primum no nocere checklist a few times.  There is reason to not be so cavalier about mild hypoxia (as well as non-hypoxic hypobaria).    
e.g.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25164539

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24819068
 

Are you suggesting that there are permanent effects from hypoxia?

I was always under the impression that as soon as you got more oxygen everything would go back to normal.

[Tom]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Are you suggesting that there are permanent effects from hypoxia?

I was always under the impression that as soon as you got more oxygen everything would go back to normal.

Yes, there are effects that are believed to be permanent.  To date, the permanent changes are only detectable with neurocognitive testing and MRI scans (i.e. everything will still seem normal).  It is a safe bet that in the coming years there will be statistically significant tangible associations made from observations of the U2 community.  At the same time, this is incredibly expensive to measure and small populations are involved, therefor it is unrealistic to assume that we will develop solid evidence-based best practices about this stuff.

Some would say "if I can't feel it I don't care."  The problem is some others do care.  Given all the other challenges going on, most of us don't need any additional challenges to the brain.

[N201MKTurbo]

I can beleve that being raised at high elevation could have permenent effects, but it is hard to imagine that a few hours out of your life spent slightly hypoxic can cause a significant permanent change. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by N201MKTurbo
Typo

[Tom]

8 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I can believe that being raised at high elevation could have permanent effects, but it is hard to imagine that a few hours out of your life spent slightly hypoxic can cause a significant permanent change. 

As best as can be told, the issue is oxygen depletion (it sounds obvious, but not necessarily).  If inflammatory reactions are going to happen, they'll start quickly (in minutes, not even hours).  While the reaction will happen quickly, and the results of the reaction will be of questionable duration.  You didn't hear it here first, but even doing a single chamber flight could result in changes seen on an MR study (please don't quote this).

Not exactly analogous, but single carbon monoxide exposures have also shown long-duration effects (albeit, again, with neurocognitive testing only).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12362006

The good news is that, all else equal, living at higher altitude probably results in longer life.

[Amelia]

 Oh, if only Science had been invented in early 70s when the copilot was awarded his Navy Flight Surgeon wings. Gas laws, hypoxia and hypobaric studies were still to come, eons in the future. If only his decades of pediatric experience had been as well-grounded and concerned as Tom's. If only there had been Science in the late 1970s, when I got my license and and then my first little airplane, we might have been much more adequate parents to our middle-sized children. We would certainly not have made :horrors: jokes. If only we had known about Science, we surely wouldn't have taken our dear young'uns skiing at Vale and Aspen, way up there in the rarified atmosphere, for fear of needing a neurologist worse than we might have needed an Orthopod. We would not have allowed them as teenagers to earn their SCUBA certs. (:yikes: decompression!)  But we took these unconscionable risks, and more, with our darlings and worse, made silly jokes, oops, sorry, because we thought the risks were far outweighed by life-enhancing benefits. And despite the terrible upbringing, they grew up to be competent, interesting and kind people, they still seem to love us, and seek out our company. For that undeserved good fortune, we continue to be thankful, and do try not to tell them how to rear their own brilliant and altogether-wonderful children. They seem to be doing quite well on their own, but maybe that is because we are ALL a bit brain-damaged, and we just don't know any better.

Thank you, anyway for your so-serious concern, Tom. No more jokes from me, even little ones, at least not many,  for fear they might provoke self-righteous ire in smarter, more responsible and scientifically-literate folk than we are. Please forgive me my misplaced levity. I am hopeless, scientifically, ethically, and intellectually.  It is all that hypoxia. And second-hand smoke in my own abused youth. At least I have never been to Flint.) 

[Tom]

Just now, Amelia said:

Thank you, anyway for your so-serious concern, Tom.

Your welcome!

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Tom said:

As best as can be told, the issue is oxygen depletion (it sounds obvious, but not necessarily).  If inflammatory reactions are going to happen, they'll start quickly (in minutes, not even hours).  While the reaction will happen quickly, and the results of the reaction will be of questionable duration.  You didn't hear it here first, but even doing a single chamber flight could result in changes seen on an MR study (please don't quote this).

Not exactly analogous, but single carbon monoxide exposures have also shown long-duration effects (albeit, again, with neurocognitive testing only).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12362006

The good news is that, all else equal, living at higher altitude probably results in longer life.

When I was a kid we had contests to see who could swim the furthest under water at the public pool. I was usually one of the winners, once did three laps under water. I was seriously hypoxic when I came up for air. Its a wonder I'm still alive...

On another note, I know when living at higher elevations your body produces more red blood cells to increase the oxygen carrying capacity of your blood to compensate for the low partial pressure of oxygen. Also, the hart will beat faster to get the body the oxygen it needs. Is there an elevation that the body cannot compensate and you just go through life hypoxic? It seems like it would be hard to get around and function. 

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Amelia said:

Oh, dear, Tom... How cavalier of everybody who has driven so heedlessly over high Rocky Mountain passes, while their children dozed peacefully in the back seat. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. I have done that terrible thing, too. Should have invested in a pressurized car. Unfortunately, I didn't have the benefit of your expertise and stern admonishment way back then, and the poor little dears lived to reproduce despite our idiotic abuse. BTW, we have never flown at altitudes requiring oxygen without providing it for everybody, and monitoring them. But, do un-wad thy skivvies long enough to realize that kids get much less quarrelsome at 8000 feet, at least ours did, without noticeable lasting CNS deficit.  

That would be really cool.  I want a pressurized car!  No - I want a pressurized car with a turbine engine - and I want it to make that cool turbine engine spooling up sound when I turn it on in the morning and pull out of the driveway at 7am.  Listen to that neighbors!

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

That would be really cool.  I want a pressurized car!  No - I want a pressurized car with a turbine engine - and I want it to make that cool turbine engine spooling up sound when I turn it on in the morning and pull out of the driveway at 7am.  Listen to that neighbors!

Give me 5000AMUs and I'll build you one!

[Tom]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I was a kid we had contests to see who could swim the furthest under water at the public pool. I was usually one of the winners, once did three laps under water. I was seriously hypoxic when I came up for air. Its a wonder I'm still alive...

On another note, I know when living at higher elevations your body produces more red blood cells to increase the oxygen carrying capacity of your blood to compensate for the low partial pressure of oxygen. Also, the hart will beat faster to get the body the oxygen it needs. Is there an elevation that the body cannot compensate and you just go through life hypoxic? It seems like it would be hard to get around and function. 

-In the pool your tissues never really had to switch to non-oxygen metabolism.  Where they did have to switch to non-oxygen energy metabolism for a few seconds those bad metabolites were washed away quite quickly in a matter of seconds, never resulting in damage.  It's quite another thing all together to have persistent non-oxygen metabolism going on for several  minutes in a row, no less an hour or more.  

-Hypoxia/hypoxic is just a mutually agreed upon numerical concept.  If you take the time to acclimate yourself, you can survive at an elevation far higher than you could naturally find food to support yourself (i.e. you'd have a hard time growing vegetables, finding meat, and a hard time finding tinder with which to cook the meat).  Your oxygen level would be in the range to qualify yourself as being hypoxic, but so what. You could still walk around and survive, even with a little sub-optimal brain activity.  The body seems designed to reproduce, not score high on IQ tests.

[Amelia]

My o

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[bonal]

seems to me the more they have gotten the lead out of everything the more kids seem to have ADHD and other problems that relate to hyper activity.  seems like it worked as a natural form of lithium that they now have to prescribe to a very high percentage of kids these days...just sayin