What should i get?

[bonal]

Just now, mike_elliott said:

Why don't you give him a call, go fly with him for an hour in his plane in the right seat while you observe. You might save your keyboard from wearing out here asking questions that only you can really answer with experience. You may hate flying in a fire breathing dragon like a Bravo and move on or make an offer on the first one you see for sale. who knows till you pick up the phone and make that call!

Heck that sounds like a fun thing to do I might have to give Don a call myself "fire breathing dragon" sign me up.  I was worried we might have pushed Sam away since he stopped posting. Glad your still in the game.

[carusoam]

Part of the PPL includes long X-countries.  Your CFI will include how to plan for them, including how to recognize the different things that can cause challenges.  You get to put all aspects of flight together.  Planning route, weather, Taxi, take-off, climb, cruise, descent, landing, add in navigate, emergencies and communication with various sources...  Get all that then debate yourself with LOP v. ROP.

have you made your own set of personalized check lists yet?

Lots of fun eye opening experiences to come...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Is Andy's Bravo still for sale?

It's in Iowa if you want to see a fire breathing dragon...

Best regards,

-a-

[Samurai Husky]

Nope, still here, still reading.

I haven't really posted much because there wasn't much to respond too. The only reason i have been responding is because people still think I'm trying to kill myself. Which is funny because someone just came in here as a newly minted PPL with 75hrs asking about mooneys an no one said anything about experience or why it was a bad idea....

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@carusoam

Yea, already started all of that! I find it fun. The only bad thing about California is that the METAR's all look the same  

for LOP, the nice thing about the Cirrus is that it as a LOP assistant built in. So we have already started using it for getting out to airports farther away, its literally like a 2min thing. So far we have been to 4 different airports and slowly getting farther and farther away. Next stop is KTCY. Then i think we are going to KMRY. Each time we get out to airport we do pattern and landing work for about a hour and then head back.

What sort of check lists are you talking about? I ask because i started my own pre-flight check list as well as prior to taxing. The plane has a built in one for run up and before take off as part of the avionics. 

 

[Shadrach]

39 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Or a TB10. Very stable, VP prop, low wing.  Not sure if the resale capability though, however I personally love them.

Cool plan but kind of a cult bird here. Not real good for loading dogs.

[bonal]

Not sure which thread is the 75 hour and as to what kind of Mooney he is inquiring about. I don't think anyone would object to a new or even student pilot learning in a C or even up to a J as they are pretty straight forward airplanes\

I just found the thread and He specifically states a C or an E as his desired choice.

[Samurai Husky]

Just now, bonal said:

Not sure which thread is the 75 hour and as to what kind of Mooney he is inquiring about. I don't think anyone would object to a new or even student pilot learning in a C or even up to a J as they are pretty straight forward airplanes

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/17972-new-member-thinking-about-a-mooney/

Ah, it was a C he was asking about. 

J is still on the Radar. The R is the target because i was actually able to see one and can confidently say the dogs will fit with no issues. I thought that from an operational standpoint the J and R were the same other than the R having more power? The R being 192ktas more fuel and longer range, the J being 170ktas. But from an operational standpoint i thought they were the same thing. Which i thought was what everyone was saying. If all things being equal and I had the option between the J and 182, i would take the J. But i assumed that if i cant handle the R I cant handle the J....

I'm getting my numbers from http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/Mooney/57.htm and http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20performance/Mooney/47.htm

So if they are wrong, i would like to know what real world actually is. 

 I liked the idea of the R having G1000's in it; I like the J because, well it's like $100k cheaper and i can always add to it.

Useful load seems about even on each; 30ktas isnt going to make or break me between the 2, so i consider it a non factor. 

 

[Shadrach]

 

24 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

I recall that Flying mag slated them when they tested them and couldn't work out why they had "comfortable" seats and a "designer panel". Interesting how times have changed and now all seats are comfortable and panels are designed. . 

I've not flown one, but sitting in a TB20 felt like the closest thing to a space ship of anything I've ever flown in.  

 

[Samurai Husky]

though if i 'were' to buy something today; (I really have to stop tormenting my self.... but its sooooo fun);

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1424111/1983-mooney-m20j-201

seems almost too good to be true....Other than saying  seven six seven seven victor is a mouth full

For the price, i could probably put extended range bladders in.

[gsengle]

I can't believe I just spent the last 2 hours catching up with ya'all. I must have missed topic initiation. I could add a lot but I'll just add a little at this point.

First I'm a M20R Owner, FIKI, with lots of long trips under my belt. Trained in a 172, complex in an arrow. Rented a long time. Bought a nice arrow for my instrument, and after a few years of traveling at 137kts I upgraded to the R.

Second, I also have an IT background for what it's worth.

Here is what I feel wasn't said or wasn't said loudly enough in the previous 3.2x10^45 posts...

1) steam gauges are not bad at all, and I believe everyone should start with them and do their instrument with them. You need a spatial picture in YOUR HEAD, not on the G1000 screen. The screen becomes a crutch that hampers learning that skill.

2) think of good steam gauges as like owning a Swiss watch. My flight director and hsi are beautiful. Panel pic at end of post. You couldn't pay me to put in a G500. iPad is a good tool, and a good backup in an emergency, yoke mounted with a stratus with ahars.

3) all this is irrelevant to getting your private. You need the airspeed indicator and a head outside the airplane to learn to fly. That's all. The basics of learning to fly is like riding a motorcycle, you need to look down the road NOT in the cockpit.

4) re that airspeed indicator. Human factors research has clearly shown that a dial "steam gauge" is easier to read/scan than a tape on a screen. And this is coming from a professional technologist.

5) I consider my M20R to be a personal airliner, but even with all that capability, weather still grounds me a lot. But here is the punch line - the more "heavy iron" a plane is, the less of a jump in and go have fun plane it will be. If I could afford a second plane it would be something like a Husky so I could fly low and slow and take the doors off in a summer day!

6) I would not personally under any circumstance buy one of the G1000 Mooneys that have no current upgrade path to WAAS. I wouldn't expect you to know at this point in your flying why this is such a big deal, but it only proves that you don't know what you don't know yet I would do what I did and buy an early Ovation. My plane has more real capability than a later non-WAAS G1000 bird.

7) this has been said but the stick and rudder skills aren't why people get concerned about freshly minted private pilots flying high performance traveling machines. It's because they are traveling machines and there is so much to learn out in the real world, especially weather. You will fear for your life, no joke, at some point in your flying career, and if you survive you'll be a better pilot because of it. There is a reason accidents peak at something like 250 hours, be careful! Flying is 90% risk management.

I really need to sleep now, but here is my humble photographic plug for how great a steam gauge cockpit can be! Keep plugging away - the best thing about the thread is that I see light bulbs going on....

Ps spellcheck is your friend

[carusoam]

20 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

 

What sort of check lists are you talking about? I ask because i started my own pre-flight check list as well as prior to taxing. The plane has a built in one for run up and before take off as part of the avionics. 

 

The POH is full of procedures that can be summed up into brief checklists.  Some new and student pilots buy something, others generate their own.

typically there are checklists for every phase of the flight from pre-flight, start-up and taxi, to T/O, climb and cruise, through descent, landing and shut down.  Emergency procedures gets it's own page....

Every time something gets added or removed from a plane, these usually get updated.  Often they are personalized to fit your priorities.  Cessna used to print them in booklet form for their trainers. My paper documents would get notes penciled into them...

They are checklists, not to do lists.  Short, terse, easy to check that everything has been done...  Like a POH in a six panel fold-up sheet of paper...

The stronger your memory is, the better your checklist use becomes...

What do you have for the Cirrus?

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

My primary CFI made me write my own based on the C 172 POH. One sheet, landscape, 3 columns, from Preflight to Shutdown. Emergency lists were on the back by category. 

[Samurai Husky]

So normally we use the operating manual since the plane is unaltered, but since that is falling apart from use i just made my own.

There is a 'walk around' check list, the book points out to check, plus i add in a few of my own line items and my instructor added a few of his own.

The pre-taxie check list are things like the common radio frequencies, departure patterns (like we dont use right cross wind, we say Leslie salt departure); Also all of the initial checks, from prime to requesting ground for taxi.

Then the final check list is the one on the MFD, that goes through all of the engine checks, mag checks, etc.

@gsengle

Sooo, this thread has been going on in tandem with my training, so as i get more hours under my belt, the more i am seeing. This past lesson i was much more comfortable scanning down at speed and keeping my eyes outside vs focusing on the interments. I still keep an eye on the turn coordinator because im still off on that, but only for a second or to and then eyes are back outside. A few weeks ago, i couldn't imagine not having glass. Today, i still want it for awareness, but I am getting better at knowing what i am doing with out looking at the screen non stop. Things are definitely starting to slow down for me. The stuff that i actually have to 'think' about now is talking with Approach or ATC and knowing what to say, when, what needs to be repeated etc. Like 'hey watch out for traffic' 

Though i think you are being slightly hypocritical with point 7. It seems like you are making a damned if you do, damned if you dont statement. Where you will only learn through experience... but don't experience it! I have no plans on rushing out to 'experience' weather. for the most part i am flexible enough to just wait it out. Most of my travel will be here on the west coast or the southwest, so i am not worried about surprises. This place isnt like chicago where the jet stream literally hangs over the city and in a blink it can go from sunny 72 to raining and 50 and back to sunny and back again....i do not miss the weather back there....

The more research i do the more the idea of a 'j' is warming on me. From my point of view its probably cheaper to get one of those and just have the back seat replaced with one that is removable. Anyone ever update the interior in a J that can give me a hint on what that would run?? If its anything like a car, i cant imagine it being more than 3k.... I still need to find one and take measurements though. Also can you replace the bench seat with 2 removable ones? or is this one of those things where you have to buy a certain model year to get those type of seats? I know the first answer is dont worry about it and learn to fly first. But I'm board and need to do something between lessons...

 

 

 

 

[gsengle]

I'm not sure how #7 is hypocritical, it's just an observation and an exhortation to be more careful than you think you need to be! And that the focus on can you fly plane X is only part of the equation. Traveling in a light plane is very challenging and just when you think you've seen every weather scenario, every atc complexity, every airport issue, every maintenance issue, every in flight emergency, you get a curve ball.

Like making an emergency landing due to a clogged injector (didn't know that at the time) to a locked up mountaintop remote field with no cell service.

I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying that the set of stuff you don't know you don't know is larger than you think - and those of us on the other side of 500+ hours all will tell ya the same, so, just be careful

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Samurai Husky]

11 minutes ago, gsengle said:

I'm not sure how #7 is hypocritical, it's just an observation and an exhortation to be more careful than you think you need to be! And that the focus on can you fly plane X is only part of the equation. Traveling in a light plane is very challenging and just when you think you've seen every weather scenario, every atc complexity, every airport issue, every maintenance issue, every in flight emergency, you get a curve ball.

Like making an emergency landing due to a clogged injector (didn't know that at the time) to a locked up mountaintop remote field with no cell service.

I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying that the set of stuff you don't know you don't know is larger than you think - and those of us on the other side of 500+ hours all will tell ya the same, so, just be careful

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, ok; 

Sorry, If you read this whole thread it seems like i get conflicting advice. Some people say 'dont try this unless you have X hours' but then there is a certain quality to hours as well. It seems like If took some people advice, those hours would be flying in a pattern around my home airport for 200hrs and i dont think that gets you any additional worldly experience. 

I was reading the thread about engine monitors and stuck valves, or clogged injectors and the symptoms etc. I have been learning a lot from this board. Especially when it comes to aircraft maintenance. 

Whats everyone's opinion on having the plane (what ever that may end up being) on a 50hr or 100hr plan as a new pilot until i learn the in's and outs of plane maintenance? I figure i could sit there and watch the mechanic do his thing and then over time pick up tips and what not. Reading about it is good; but im the type of person that needs to see it to really understand it. Maybe bribe him with a box of doughnuts or something....

 

[gsengle]

Annuals are fine but yes owning a plane is a whole nother set of stuff to learn beyond just piloting it! Lots of maintenance decisions.

Here is another thing I forgot to mention. Another reason you scrub IFR flights in a single is if you have widespread low ceilings... Sure you can get on top, but you need some room below the clouds to pick a suitable landing spot in the event of engine failure - read some of those go/no go threads...

There are just so many topics like that, and you learn by doing - carefully.

No worries, the journey is the destination.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mooniac15u]

31 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

The more research i do the more the idea of a 'j' is warming on me. From my point of view its probably cheaper to get one of those and just have the back seat replaced with one that is removable. Anyone ever update the interior in a J that can give me a hint on what that would run?? If its anything like a car, i cant imagine it being more than 3k.... I still need to find one and take measurements though. Also can you replace the bench seat with 2 removable ones? or is this one of those things where you have to buy a certain model year to get those type of seats? I know the first answer is dont worry about it and learn to fly first. But I'm board and need to do something between lessons...

 

 

 

 

From 1982 on the M20Js have split, folding rear seats.  It isn't really worth it to try to convert an older one.

[carl]

Well this is what I think you should do.

1) buy a Cessna 180 tail dragger. ( tail draggers make better pilots)

2) hire a CFI to fly with you (on a cheaper per hour contract deal then through a FBO) and get your license and IR.

3) After you get you license you will probably want a different plane, so get another one.

4) sell the one you don't want.

       I'm on my second plane,  I will list them;

AA5 Grumman

Mooney M20 E 

             How about everyone listing the planes you own or have owned, in order. Not what you fly for work ( unless you own it ) cause those G -5 s make me cry.

SAM, This is a popular post because we like to talk about planes.

Carl

[Shadrach]

42 minutes ago, carl said:

Well this is what I think you should do.

1) buy a Cessna 180 tail dragger. ( tail draggers make better pilots)

2) hire a CFI to fly with you (on a cheaper per hour contract deal then through a FBO) and get your license and IR.

3) After you get you license you will probably want a different plane, so get another one.

4) sell the one you don't want.

       I'm on my second plane,  I will list them;

AA5 Grumman

Mooney M20 E 

             How about everyone listing the planes you own or have owned, in order. Not what you fly for work ( unless you own it ) cause those G -5 s make me cry.

SAM, This is a popular post because we like to talk about planes.

Carl

I like the idea of a Tail Dragger, but it's a limited market at resale.  

[bonal]

I think a J would be a good choice. It's a mid size normally aspirated with removable rear seats has enough performance that you would likely fly it for quite a while and as one of the most desirable Mooney's would be a better sell if you decided to move up. If you can find one and then just pay a Mooney skilled CFI to train. As others have said its not just the type of airplane but the challenges of long distance flight. For me a 150 was perfect but that's me. The more you learn the more you will understand how much more there is to learn. Now on the subject of ownership that is as big a plate as any aspect of GA these airplanes can keep you up at night in more ways than one.

[carl]

22 minutes ago, bonal said:

. For me a 150 was perfect but that's me. The more you learn the more you will understand

so true ,

I learned in a rented 150, then into a rented 172, then bought the Grumman then my  Mooney, my next step is my IR 

[carusoam]

I like GS's steam gauges...Many are digital powered instruments with mechanical needles.  There have been some updates like the four color screens that are pretty new.  The old clunky looking BK radio is even digital.

because you asked... I started with an M20C with a relatively new PPL.  I experienced one error.  It was not as much IFR capable as I thought it was.  One VOR and an ADF. The Loran was not IFR capable in it's best days.  

Words of wisdom, if you have the choice, buy something that is IFR ready. VOR, ILS, WAAS GPS. Any airport with a modern approach will have one of these.  Sure an ADF is usable, but I did say modern...

Adding All this stuff later takes additional time and effort...

How many hours have you accumulated so far, Sam?

Best regards,

-a-

[Samurai Husky]

How many hours have you accumulated so far, Sam?

not nearly enough....... 

I've been able to fly 3 times a week for the past few weeks so i have made a lot of progress. I am about 6 lessons away from solo; But those are just lessons; I think once we get through all of them, we work on things we need to work on specifically before i am 'released'; 

Though in order to do that many lessons, i have been going up in conditions that arnt exactly the greatest of learning experience. Today for example wind 18g34.... we did a few landings where i was like 'great im on the center line...... and now Im not even over the runway.......' 

Though i did get to see a really nice WW2 fighter plane that could eat my plane for lunch... It was down the runway and off in a blink of an eye. Pretty cool stuff. 

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

How many hours have you accumulated so far, Sam?

not nearly enough.......  

Spoken like a true pilot!!

[Yetti]

12 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

Though in order to do that many lessons, i have been going up in conditions that arnt exactly the greatest of learning experience. Today for example wind 18g34.... we did a few landings where i was like 'great im on the center line...... and now Im not even over the runway.......' 

Have you studied about pilot attitudes yet?

I kind of know your type since I have done IT for a long while.  So here is something to think about.  What you are calling "not idea for learning" conditions is blaming the winds vs. learning to fly the plane.  In some places those winds are normal.  If you are flying to other places and you experience those conditions you will still have to land the plane. You don't have enough fuel to fly back to your safe winds place.   You have enough fuel for a go around or two, but eventually you have to land it.  Think of it this way.  Training carrier pilots are given 3 chances to make the carrier landing.  Then they are no longer a Navy Pilot. 

You are not operating a computer, telling it was to do with proper syntax and 1 and zeros. There is not a standard process or procedure that will work every time like there is in IT. You are flying a plane in a fluid 3 dimensional environment.  I actually envision the wind and what it will do to the plane and the control surfaces and the action and the reaction. Right now you keep blaming the plane or the winds. Change your attitude to be that you are the PIC it is your plane and you need to get it down safely for yourself and your passengers. Your instructor needs to teach you a bunch of tricks to put in your bag should you need to pull them out.

My first one wheel landing was because of the winds.   I had it set up to flare, got knocked out of wack.  Got set up again knocked out of wack.  So switched to having one wing down into the wind got the one main down and landed it.  You should have your instructor do some forward slips all the way to a landing so you can pull that out of your bag of tricks when you need it.