M20C Sat in Hangar for 10 years - Buy or Pass?

[bonal]

You totally misunderstood what point I was making no I can't afford a 200k plane nor even a 55k one and I was just thinking about how much is spent on pre buys that end up in no sales. I'm not advocating that you don't have an inspection done by a qualified agent and if you find one in my neck of the woods I'd be happy to at least take a look for you. I can sense your frustration hopefully the plane you seek finds you 

[Yetti]

I am kind of with Bonal on this.  A $2 AMU pre buy (1 AMU the prebuy and 1AMU on logistics) on a $35K plane is a lot of money compared to $2 AMU on $250 AMU plane.  And you now don't have the 2 AMU to spend on fixing it up.  Which you will most likely be spending anyways pre buy or not. 

  I missed that it had been in annual for the last 2 years.

I am also thinking the engine rebuild it prior to all the bad metallurgy years.  Older engine rebuild is not always a bad thing.

See if they will give you a copy of the AD compliance list

One of your negotiating points is that they are a long way from most buyers

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Yetti

[glafaille]

Carusoam-

I am a 59 year old professional pilot so not new to aviation.  I am new to aircraft ownership, this will be my first and probably only aircraft purchase.  My son is out of college, it's just my wife and I, so we have some spare change.  We live in a small town and want to do some traveling together as well as visit my son who lives on the East Coast and other family living in Denver and California.  My job allows me a bit extra time off for travel, but no free airline passes.

I am not a mechanic but am familiar with maintenance of corporate jets, which is part of my problem.  I expect "corporate jet" record keeping with 50 year old Mooneys.  Not going to find it!

My total experience with flying Mooneys is a 10 minute re-position of a 201 for a friend who needed his plane moved to an avionics shop.  Seemed to fly nice.  I think my biggest problem learning to fly a Mooney will be in flying 80 mph on final, anything less than 130 knots makes me nervous!  I'll keep to LONG runways for a while!

I didn't start at the lowest price, I sort of ended up at Walmart because I couldn't find what I wanted at Macy's.  Nothing out there that met my requirements in my upper price range so I'm looking elsewhere, digging through the "bargain bin". You never know!

 

[Marauder]

I'm going to be the realist on this thread. The unfortunate reality of buying a used airplane is that there is no such thing as a perfect used airplane. Even those airplanes that have been well-maintained may also still need to be upgraded for avionics or other aging components.

And even if you bought a new airplane, the post warranty cost could still put you into trouble. I have a brother-in-law who owns a Columbia 400. His post warranty costs are just as much if not more than mine on an annual basis. And I didn't layout $529,000 to buy.

As for the selling population of planes, I am not surprised at what you are finding. There are a number of owners out there who are keeping their plane and flying very little or have aspirations that one day they'll get back in the saddle. And when the decision is made to sell either by them or someone else, what you are finding is a plane in a condition that represents a point in time in the past. If the plane is in a condition circa 1980, what makes you think the owner even knows how to turn on a computer let alone scan something? :-)

I would be looking or least holding out for an airplane that has good bones, a sound engine and working avionics for the type of flying I anticipate doing. I would be looking for an airplane at the lowest price I could find based on my budget and anticipate that I will need at least half of my budget to upgrade or repair things over the next year or two. If you go all in with your budget and end up with significant costs in the first year of ownership, you will become nothing more than the next owner of the hangar queen.

I would also try my best to see if any of the members of the site are close enough to look at some of the prospects.

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[glafaille]

Bonal-

 

No worries buddy!  It's all good.  Just me a bit tired from all the driving over the weekend with little to show for it.  

To find a suitable 50 year old airplane is not an easy task.  One must learn many skills related to online shopping of airplanes and telephone shopping.  You have to learn exactly what to ask, how to ask for it and how to ask for it again and again.  Then when you think you have enough info, you have to drive to where the plane is, and know exactly what to look for when you see it, and know bad stuff when you see that.

It's a skill set that is not easily acquired or inexpensive.  Trial and error is a big part.  Plus the more you learn, the more difficult it becomes to find airplanes that meet your new standards.

A tedius process indeed.

Thank you for your comments and I apologize to you and everyone if I seem a bit "testy" from time to time.

[bonal]

I have just decided when I win the Lottery and get my new Aclaim I am going to fly all over the country taking prospective buyers to look at Mooneis 

[Marauder]

I have just decided when I win the Lottery and get my new Aclaim I am going to fly all over the country taking prospective buyers to look at Mooneis 

Who you kidding? You win the lottery, you'll be in that new TBM 900.

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[glafaille]

When I win the lottery I'm going to buy one of these so all of us can go look at the plane, anywhere, with our families, and take mechanics, and parts!

Who wants shotgun?

 

[Yetti]

My lottery plane is a Pilatus

 

[steingar]

The most I'd pay for an airplane out of annual is the scrap value, which isn't very much at all.  If the seller wants more he can get it annualled.  Sorry, there are plenty of Mooneys out there.  I admit none are perfect, the fellow who talked about 50 year old airplanes had it right.  But at least they're airworthy.

I would run, not walk away from this.  There is a reason the seller doesn't want to get it inspected.  

[M20F]

10 hours ago, glafaille said:

However, I have no problem spending up to $55,000 on the right airplane.  The problem is, over the last 4 months I haven't seen an airplane in that price range, meeting my requirements, without significant issues like missing logbooks, 25 year old overhauls, obvious corrosion, wrinkled fuselage skins, obvious damage, run out engines, extensive owner performed maintenance, etc.  Sometimes the problem is that the plane is located in a difficult to reach area of the country, or just too far away.  Sometimes the owner is the problem, they don't know how to email pictures, use drop box etc.  "Just come see it, you'll love it!".

You are close to All American Aircraft down in Spring Branch.  Call Jimmy or Dave and tell them what you are looking for and your price parameters, odds are they can help you find it or they have it.  They have several nice C's and E's for sale in your price range to look at right now.  They don't negotiate a lot on base price but they will negotiate on things like I will buy it if it goes to Maxwell for an annual (not a PPI) and you cover airworthy items.  I bought my F from there and they were really are decent folks and stuck to their word and the deal (which cost them some money and effort which is why I sing their praises).  My end result was I got a plane that was very solid mechanically with some nice mods, radios, etc. but with a suspect motor due to time.  I got it 200hrs past TBO and did a top plus cam and some other stuff over the next couple of years of ownership (signed repair/return, my engine will be over 4000HR's since TBO according to the books) and have had no other real expenses.

While I wanted a 67-F with a Rayjay I was open to looking at Bonanza's, Commanches, etc. during my search.  As much as I wanted an F, I would have taken a really awesome Commanche or Bonanza if they turned up.  All three models are roughly the same on speed/fuel burn/load/etc. and each have some unique +/-'s to where I would have been happy with any of them (I like to fly and go places). 

If what your truly want is Vintage Mooney XXX then you need to be patient to wait for the right one which might take 12-18 months or find one that has the hard to find bits (speed mods that are hard to get these days, turbo, etc.) and pay to bring it up to speed over time.  Most air frames out there are solid with most corrosion issues being fixable (they all have corrosion) and if you do it correctly you can redo an entire motor with new stuff for $20K or less as an overhaul or as a repair/return (which is just as good but people hate to see those words in the log books for resale).

Be patient and don't discount other models.  Flying is about the mission in GA for 99.99% of the world, not about brand X or Y so be open to looking at other good planes that fit your mission.  Good luck!

Edited February 2, 2016 by M20F

[rbridges]

another 2 cents from the peanut gallery.  That plane doesn't call out to me, especially at that price point.  I know you said yourself that it was overpriced, but I know you can get much nicer birds for another 10k.  I know that's a chunk of change, but what I see:

1-engine that is uncertain.  any engine can fail, but this one may have a higher chance of disappointing you

2-basic avionics

for 35k, I think you can find a mooney that has been flown regularly SMOH with similar avionics.  

[glafaille]

Gentlemen-

 

I just received the following email from the seller:

Mr. LaFaille,

The owner does not want the plane to leave Lubbock for inspection. Please advise your intentions at this point, thank you.



Vice President/General Manager
Lubbock Aero

 

I'll certainly pass on this deal and keep looking.

Thanks to all for the comments.

[rbridges]

that may not mean it's a bad plane, but it gives me a first impression about dealing with the owner.  

[jetdriven]

34 minutes ago, glafaille said:

Gentlemen-

 

I just received the following email from the seller:

Mr. LaFaille,

The owner does not want the plane to leave Lubbock for inspection. Please advise your intentions at this point, thank you.



Vice President/General Manager
Lubbock Aero

 

I'll certainly pass on this deal and keep looking.

Thanks to all for the comments.

With that I'd pass too.  

[gsxrpilot]

Ok, plan B.

As Mike said, I'd make a trip to San Antonio to see Jimmy and David at All-American. (Drive here to Austin, and I'll fly you to Spring Branch.) I'd like to look at what they have and talk about the value of my C.

There is one big risk in meeting Jimmy or David... you're likely to get home and find out you bought a J or K and spent twice your budget.

[chrisk]

I would respond to the brokers note with: 

If the plane can not be inspected by a reputable 3rd party Mooney expert (Arapahoe Aero, Don Maxwell, Dugosh), I can not afford to take the time or cost to visit the plane.  Please pass this along to the owner.

[carusoam]

Since you are into traveling and looking.  

The individual MSCs keep a list of their customer's planes that are for sale.  This is good for the buyer as the plane is somewhat pre screened by professionals.  They can tell you about the condition with some level of experience.

As mentioned above, It only makes sense to stop by...

http://allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

Visiting with them (David and Jimmy) and seeing the inventory up close, you get real knowledge for what you really want in a plane.  

They have Mooneys in inventory.  Call before you go.  This is the normal procedure.  To know as much as you can before setting out on a trip.  Planes do sell from time to time.

You will get a feeling for how serious the effort is to find your bird and bring it through the purchase process. Traveling long distances to individual opportunities does bring up the cost.  Failed PPIs are even more expensive and dissapointing.  Private sellers are always going to be an unknown. Coming here to complain about a wacky seller happens often.

Buying a machine is really a job.  If you do all the work yourself, the risk and savings are all yours. Using the MSC or AAA there may be higher costs associated to pre screen and the lower risks. Knowing exactly what you want is a tremendous advantage.

Some people enjoy the hunt.  When the hunt doesn't turn up the plane they want, they start to cultivate their relationships with the AAAs and MSCs...

PPIs aren't perfect, but they are your best defense against the unknown.

Best regards,

-a-

[glafaille]

I went to Spring Branch last week and saw David.  I didn't have a lot of time as we got there about 4:00 and they stayed late for us till about 6:00.  I didn't see anything in the current inventory that met my requirements at my price point.  I enjoyed the visit though.

[Parker_Woodruff]

What's the story on this one?  The recent gear-up landing means the engine was torn down and inspected.  That might eliminate some of your risk there.

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1392247/1964-mooney-m20c

 

That said, I'd probably go for this plane.  Much newer and 400 hours on a recent overhaul.  Air-mods is a good shop.  Have them do an annual as part of the deal.

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1402545/1975-mooney-m20c-ranger

[chrisk]

Parker,

The first one would be on my list to see.    It's got a WAAS based GPS and an auto pilot.  Easily worth the extra $10K

[glafaille]

The green C model that experienced the gear up landing DID NOT have the engine torn down and inspected per the Lycoming prop strike SB.  I'll pass on that one.

[carusoam]

The second one is listed by a highly respected MSC in NJ. Call and speak with Dave.

Need somebody to see it for you?  There are a few NJMooneypilots members that can probably stop by.

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

Hmmm... who did the repair on the Green one?  I'd probably give that one another once over. With WAAS, the Stec30/altitude, and the Top Prop... those are all very expensive upgrades. If it were me, I'd want to get on the phone with the mechanic who did the gear-up repair and see what the thinking was behind not doing a full teardown and overhaul.

My C had three gear up's, and missing logs prior to 1982. I'm so happy many people passed on it and I was able to acquire it. I've only had it two years, and the guy who sold it to me has called three times asking if he can buy it back. It might be one of the best C's in the country... if you can get past the damage history and log issue.

Just my $0.02

[glafaille]