M20D Fixed Gear

[helitim]

Got to say, this just messed with my head when I saw this plane.

 

 

The owner just laughed when he saw the puzzled look on my face.  He finally said "yes, it's a fixed gear"

Edited January 27, 2016 by helitim

[RLCarter]

It is rare to see a "D" that hasn't been converted 

[bonal]

As an owner of one of them there converted D models I can say I would not have purchased it had it not been done. If I could afford more than one airplane it would be cool to have one because they are indeed rare  but I needed a traveling machine and really I think it was Mooney's intention that they be upgraded by there owners once they were ready to move up to a complex. And when you think about it a pilot could make the transition in an airplane they were already framilier with.

[Piloto]

I think it would have been easier to just put a padlock on the Johnson bar and when you were ready for retractable just remove the padlock.

José

[kpaul]

6 hours ago, bonal said:

And when you think about it a pilot could make the transition in an airplane they were already framilier with.

I think would have probably led to more gear up landings.  There is a lot to be said about repetition, if you logged 100 landings in a specific plane and never gave the gear a second thought because they were down and welded it could easily be overlooked when now they are retracted. 

[BDPetersen]

Gave a few hundred hours of dual in one in 1964-65. Even then you might get a call from the tower to remind you your gear was down. Down and welded was the reply.

[Raptor05121]

Mine was converted in 1968. It made sense.

The M20C in 1963 was IIRC $20,000. The M20D was $13,995 and then when you were ready for retract, was a $3500 option to convert.

[bonal]

I wonder did the 3500 include the change to a CS prop as well. I wonder how many have the retract gear but still have a fixed prop.

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, kpaul said:

I think would have probably led to more gear up landings.  There is a lot to be said about repetition, if you logged 100 landings in a specific plane and never gave the gear a second thought because they were down and welded it could easily be overlooked when now they are retracted. 

Except for the 120 mph max gear speed for M20C/E.

[RLCarter]

Gear speed is for the doors I think,  the D's had fairings. Anyone have the numbers for a D?

[HRM]

14 hours ago, RLCarter said:

It is rare to see a "D" that hasn't been converted 

I thought they had all been converted via an AD or something.

That one is museum quality and should be preserved as is.

[carusoam]

There are three in the US, so has been reported.

We had one in NJ for a few years parked outside.  It has left a few years ago...

MS has at least one red one here somewhere.

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

8 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Gear speed is for the doors I think,  the D's had fairings. Anyone have the numbers for a D?

I think the proposal, tongue in cheek?, was to just train in a C with the J Bar locked down until you're ready for the complexity. It that case the gear would have the max speed issue.

Are you sure about the doors being the issue on early M20s? I don't think I've seen that.

[carusoam]

Gear operations are fully powered by the air pressing against the gear doors...

the faster you go, the faster the gear deploys.

releasing the gear in cruise brings the J-bar back very quickly with tremendous force, up to when it hits the end of it's travel...

So I've been told...

I think you can see which way the doors angle out into the wind while on the ground.

Having that piece of knowledge, it only makes sense that it is easier to put the gear up while going slowly.

there are two air speeds for moving the gear up and down.  Slow for one and faster for the other....

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Gear operations are fully powered by the air pressing against the gear doors...

the faster you go, the faster the gear deploys.

releasing the gear in cruise brings the J-bar back very quickly with tremendous force, up to when it hits the end of it's travel...

So I've been told...

I think you can see which way the doors angle out into the wind while on the ground.

Having that piece of knowledge, it only makes sense that it is easier to put the gear up while going slowly.

there are two air speeds for moving the gear up and down.  Slow for one and faster for the other....

operating speeds are different than gear down speeds.  Because of this.

gear doors and their hardware are flimsy compared to the gear themselves they are designed to be stowed during flight.

Best regards,

-a-

[HRM]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Gear operations are fully powered by the air pressing against the gear doors...

Successful operation quite dependent on pilot skill.

My E will not fly over 120 with the gear down, I've tried 

At that speed, gear down, you can forget getting the gear up (unless you have the upper body strength of a body builder).

Doing the Mooney Nod (see below) is not advised at that speed. If you wish to experience weightlessness in your Mooney, along with anything not secured in the cockpit, try it.

Pre-landing I use my gear like a speed brake when near 120.

On climb-out you pulse the yoke forward sharply, nose dips and raising gear is effortless. This is the Mooney Nod and execution requires some coordination.

Side benefit is that unsuspecting pax are freaked out. Especially fun at the start of a BFR with a non-Mooney CFI--sets the tone for the review.

[Marauder]

Gear operations are fully powered by the air pressing against the gear doors...

the faster you go, the faster the gear deploys.

releasing the gear in cruise brings the J-bar back very quickly with tremendous force, up to when it hits the end of it's travel...

So I've been told...

I think you can see which way the doors angle out into the wind while on the ground.

Having that piece of knowledge, it only makes sense that it is easier to put the gear up while going slowly.

there are two air speeds for moving the gear up and down.  Slow for one and faster for the other....

operating speeds are different than gear down speeds.  Because of this.

gear doors and their hardware are flimsy compared to the gear themselves they are designed to be stowed during flight.

Best regards,

-a-

At some point the airspeed for VLo and VLe went from the paltry 104 KIAS on my F to over I believe 135 KIAS on the Js. What allowed that to happen? If it is a matter of beefed up gear doors, sign me up. If it due to an expensive gear motor retrofit, I'll pass. Anyone know what allowed the higher gear speeds?

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[rbridges]

I'd like to know, too.  I'm stuck in the 104 K.  On a side note, someone at my airport dumped his gear at a pretty high speed in his Ovation.  Totally wrecked his front gear doors.  The IA tried to bend them back into shape but you know that wasn't going to work.  They never fit flush again.  I know the replacement doors set the owner back over a grand.  I can't remember if that was per door or for the set.

[Raptor05121]

On 1/27/2016 at 9:06 AM, bonal said:

I wonder did the 3500 include the change to a CS prop as well. I wonder how many have the retract gear but still have a fixed prop.

I think it did. You couldn't have that combination, from a Mooney conversion anyway. My POH for the D model is 3x thicker. A set of numbers for three combinations of plane: fixed gear fixed pitch, fixed gear constant speed or retractable gear constant speed. There is a notation that to get retractable gear, you must have a constant speed prop as well.

23 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Gear speed is for the doors I think,  the D's had fairings. Anyone have the numbers for a D?

Fixed/fixed? Per my TCDS:

Maneuvering: 132 m.p.h. (115 knots) True Ind.

Never exceed: 189 m.p.h. (164 knots) True Ind.

Flaps extended: 100 m.p.h. ( 87 knots) True Ind.

Maximum structural cruising: 147 m.p.h. (128 knots) True Ind.

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

At some point the airspeed for VLo and VLe went from the paltry 104 KIAS on my F to over I believe 135 KIAS on the Js. What allowed that to happen? If it is a matter of beefed up gear doors, sign me up. If it due to an expensive gear motor retrofit, I'll pass. Anyone know what allowed the higher gear speeds?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

JBar Mooneys have the same, low VLo.e speeds so I would not think it is because of the motor.

[carusoam]

Some changes that came with...

20:1 vs 40:1 gear ratio may have something to do with gear speeds if you want to do some searching.

One or Two vs three doors per wheel may have something to do with the change of speeds.

thoughts of a PP, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

6 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I think it did. You couldn't have that combination, from a Mooney conversion anyway. My POH for the D model is 3x thicker. A set of numbers for three combinations of plane: fixed gear fixed pitch, fixed gear constant speed or retractable gear constant speed. There is a notation that to get retractable gear, you must have a constant speed prop as well.

Fixed/fixed? Per my TCDS:

Maneuvering: 132 m.p.h. (115 knots) True Ind.

Never exceed: 189 m.p.h. (164 knots) True Ind.

Flaps extended: 100 m.p.h. ( 87 knots) True Ind.

Maximum structural cruising: 147 m.p.h. (128 knots) True Ind.

How does this compare to the early-60s Cs? My electric C has the higher speeds:

Va    132 mph

Vne  200 mph

Vfe   125 mph

Vg     120 mph  [obviously not available for Fixed Gear D models]

Yellow Line = 175 mph

Edited January 28, 2016 by Hank
Typo

[Bob_Belville]

Hank, earlier Cs & Es had lower max speeds.

VLg 120 mph,

Vfe 100 mph,

Vne 189 mph,

Vno 150 mph.

(I suppose you mean that Vne, not Vno, is 200 mph.)

 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Marauder said: At some point the airspeed for VLo and VLe went from the paltry 104 KIAS on my F to over I believe 135 KIAS on the Js. What allowed that to happen? If it is a matter of beefed up gear doors, sign me up. If it due to an expensive gear motor retrofit, I'll pass. Anyone know what allowed the higher gear speeds?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

JBar Mooneys have the same, low VLo.e speeds so I would not think it is because of the motor.

I can understand the J bar being limited by the wimpy armed guys that fly them or more likely wind resistance.

I suspect Anthony's explanation is plausible. The question to ask if there are any 1977 J owners out there that have the 104 KIAS speed limitation. I believe the 77s shared the same gear motor with the late model C/E & Fs. If they have a higher gear speed, more likely it is a door thing.

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[bonal]

I sometimes wonder if the changes in performance limits are simply due to more extensive flight test in certification with updated numbers and the older models book speeds are never updated even though the equipment is the same