spark plug replacement, damage from missing gasket??

[DXB]

So a mechanic serviced  my plane when it wouldn't start and stranded me.  Turned out to be a loose connection to starter switch.  In the process of diagnosing, he pulled the bottom #2 and #4 plugs from my O-360-A1D.   I flew home with no problems, but then got a call the next day from the mechanic wondering if he'd forgotten to put copper gaskets on the two plugs.  Sure enough, they were missing on #2 and #4 when I pulled all my bottom plugs today.  I'm going to replace my spark plugs for safe measure- they may have overheated since the gasket serves heat transfer as well as sealing under compression, and the plugs would have protruded too far into the cylinder.

My questions:

1. Is there any real damage to my engine from this??  The threads in the cylinder heads looked ok to my eye.  

2.  What spark plugs should I use?  Is is reasonable to use Tempest UREM37BYs? I am planning to replace all 8 even though they have only 200hrs.

Regarding the latter question, my reasoning is as follows:  I pulled Champion REM40E massive plugs from the bottom - all failed resistance test.  I'd requested my shop resistance test a few weeks ago at annual but they blew me off. Oddly they also rotated these plugs to the bottom, and put my Champion fine wires on top- makes no sense at all.  I'd expect the fine wires to have the same resistance problem.  So I'm thinking of replacing all with Tempest UREM37BYs.  People with hot running C models  like mine have reported  cooler temps in other threads by using these plugs.  Alternately I could spend the money to put in long-lasting Tempest fine wires, but these seem harder to maintain with their delicate electrodes and sensitivity to sand-blasting.  Given recent experiences, I'm all about doing my own spark plug maintenance going forward.   

[N601RX]

My experience with tempest fine wire plugs for the last 4 year is that there has been no reason to service or clean them.   I've heard that a few people have found lead balls in them, but these can be easily removed with a dental pick or safety wire. 

[Bob_Belville]

I believe in (Tempest) fine wire plugs in my M20E (IO360). They do get cleaned at the annual. I've never had a fouled fine wire, unlike my experience with massives. I have had this plane 4 years. Early on I experienced fouled (Champion massives) plugs. The previous owner had replaced several plugs over a few years. The resistance was inconsistent plug to plug. I bought a set of Tempest fine wires a few months into my ownership and spark plugs have not been an issue since. (I had another M20E years ago and had identical experience. I may have gotten 1000 hours on a set of fine wires.) I know prices have inflated in the last couple of years, I paid $50 per plug in June 2012. I suspect that represents their quality and the problems Champion has apparently had with design, QC, or both. 

YMMV

[Mooneymite]

 

My questions:

1. Is there any real damage to my engine from this??  The threads in the cylinder heads looked ok to my eye.  

Hmmmmm.  That's a head-scratcher.  I don't think a single flight would have caused any damage unless you are operating "on the edge" as far as temp's go.  Nor do I believe the slightly longer reach of the plug without the gasket would be a danger in the O-360....the piston would easily clear the plug.

I'm fairly certain that yours is not the first engine ever operated with missing plug gaskets.    I suspect Lycoming may have even provided tolerance for such.

However, this is just a layman's guess.  I'll be interested in the opinions of those who know.

As for your second question, I think the Tempest fine wires are the way to go.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Mooneymite

[Bob_Belville]

 

 

I'm fairly certain that yours is not the first engine ever operated with missing plug gaskets.    I suspect Lycoming may have even provided tolerance for such.

 

And more than a few plugs have been installed with a new washer and the old one still in the hole.

[mike20papa]

If BOZO the mechanic clown had forgotten plug gaskets.. you wonder if he might have forgotten to wipe his ass before he got u're plane signed off.  I'd remove the interior and disenfecal. at the minimum look over those log books for brown spots.  Call the mechanic and ask him.. tell him that his work should be reported to the FAA, you want his re-inspection, tell him he is a POcrap!   Yike ola.

Edited January 11, 2016 by mike20papa

[DXB]

 

If BOZO the mechanic clown had forgotten plug gaskets.. you wonder if he might have forgotten to wipe his ass before he got u're plane signed off.  I'd remove the interior and disenfecal. at the minimum look over those log books for brown spots.  Call the mechanic and ask him.. tell him that his work should be reported to the FAA, you want his re-inspection, tell him he is a POcrap!   Yike ola.

This was roughly my initial reaction before I calmed down.  Thank you for taking care of my rant for me so that I don't have to    There are more choice details to this wonderful aircraft service interaction that I've omitted, as they don't impact my situation directly.  I'm sure I'll have the chance to tell some of  you in person sometime though.

[Guest]

I seriously doubt that any harm was done to your engine.  The 37BY plug has a deeper electrode depth than te standard plug.

By all accounts the 37BY plug is a good choice.

Clarence

[Guest]

 

If BOZO the mechanic clown had forgotten plug gaskets.. you wonder if he might have forgotten to wipe his ass before he got u're plane signed off.  I'd remove the interior and disenfecal. at the minimum look over those log books for brown spots.  Call the mechanic and ask him.. tell him that his work should be reported to the FAA, you want his re-inspection, tell him he is a POcrap!   Yike ola.

I can hardly wait to hear of your first mistake.  Get off your high horse!

At least the mechanic had the smarts to realize his mistake and the balls to call the customer/ owner.  

Clarence

[Mooneymite]

 

I can hardly wait to hear of your first mistake.  Get off your high horse!

At least the mechanic had the smarts to realize his mistake and the balls to call the customer/ owner.  

Clarence

Anyone who thinks either pilots, or mechanics never make mistakes is living in a dream world.  

[HRM]

 

Anyone who thinks either pilots, or mechanics never make mistakes is living in a dream world.  

Let he who is without sin cast the first plug gasket.

[DXB]

 

At least the mechanic had the smarts to realize his mistake and the balls to call the customer/ owner.  

Clarence

There are complex errors of judgement, and then there are simple careless deviations from standard practice.  But the guy did have the decency to call me, and no real harm done it seems.  The real challenge for me as an inexperienced owner is to trust but also verify enough about the work done without being a PITA and eroding the relationship.  

 

Let he who is without sin cast the first plug gasket.

If he came back as an aircraft mechanic, he would have my business  .

[Guest]

 

Anyone who thinks either pilots, or mechanics never make mistakes is living in a dream world.  

My best friend works in a cardiac centre, where they quote 1-3% of death as a result of heart surgery.  If we quoted similar chances of death as a result of doing maintenance or an Annual Inspection, there would be no one left flying.

Thankfully the stats are lower for heart surgery and even lower in Aviation.

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

 

My best friend works in a cardiac centre, where they quote 1-3% of death as a result of heart surgery.  If we quoted similar chances of death as a result of doing maintenance or an Annual Inspection, there would be no one left flying.

Thankfully the stats are lower for heart surgery and even lower in Aviation.

Clarence

I'm thinking cardiac surgery takes "complex" to a whole new level.

[DXB]

Not sure the high risk medical procedure analogy applies very precisely here. Cardiac surgery does carry the mortality rate cited above, but most of those deaths in good centers do not result from any particular medical error- it's just the nature of the risk landscape for that procedure.  I suspect most aircraft maintenance procedures have much lower uncontrollable risks. There is similarity in that numerous errors, most small, a few major, do occur during aircraft maintenance and medical procedures, but most do not end in death or serious adverse consequences.  

[carusoam]

Both seem to have a few things in common.  

Nobody likes emergency heart surgery or emergency plane maintenance...

From the user experience, neither of those options is going to be perfect...

Best regards,

-a-

[stevesm20b]

I went to the 37by plugs a year ago and there great. Smoother engine operation, runs cooler and no fouling.

 

[Yetti]

After working on things it is always good to have "some quality time with a flashlight"   After alot of work, the A&P and I spent  a good 15 minutes looking at one side.  Then we switched sides.      I was at my IAs shop looking at an uncowled SR22.   Just looking.   He knew what I was doing.   Asked if I saw anything out of place. 

It is a mental process.   You are starting at the end of one hose following it and making sure it is connected at the other end.  Then you tactile feel if nuts and connectors are tight.  Then the next tube or wire follow end to end. Any holes without screws?  Any tie wire missing?   The A&P is ok with the alternator bolt not being tied.  The IA wants it tied.   I check the belt each preflight.   Adel clamps, can anything chafe? Is anything laying on a hot exhaust pipe.  Can anything get to a hot exhaust pipe.   So if that vibrates what happens?   Say your sensors are tied to the cowl, then to the engine mount then to the spark plug lines.  All those things vibrate differently.   Imagine the cowl covers are on, will anything touch them.

Now you are ready to cowl it.    Put the cowls on then pound on it with your hand.  Did any thing rattle?   a cam loc pop loose?  

 

Just a PP with some AR qualities.   Yes I sort the bolt bins at Home Depot.  IT's a gift, not an illness

 

 

Edited January 11, 2016 by Yetti

[DXB]

"Trust but verify"  -Ronald Reagan