Pictreed Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 I'm in a bit of a dilemma about performance in a 1965 E and a 1990 J. My question is if I put the mods on the E how will it compare to the J? I flew a 1965 E the other day with the mods and loved it. If I remember right we were at 140 Kts and about 8.5 gph. I saw Soarbird's video in his J and he was getting about the same numbers at 10000'. Is this about right, an E with the upgrades will be about like a J? Thanks Tim Quote
MB65E Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 What's the goal? If the company is purchasing the aircraft, I would not reccomend the older E. The J has more creature comforts that make the J "feel" better for Pax. If it's an E you already own or a known E, I'd stick with that then. I think there are several modified E's that are faster than stock J's. Hopefully you were looking at indicated 140kts. I would think most E's would do that. If an E is cleaned up and rigged correctly you can get 160ktas out of it. Mine is just shy if that. A J would be a great addition to your company. -Matt Quote
HRM Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 My E is very slippery, very maneuverable and very fast. It has about every mod it could have. I have never flown with anyone in the <cough> back seat. Quote
cnoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 Well... Both the E and J are great planes, but in the Mooney lineup I personally find them to be quite different. I previously partnered in an E, and now own a J so I speak from (limited but actual) experience. The E had better acceleration and climb but lacked the stability of the J. The E had a more sporty feel but didn't hold pitch trim nearly as well (altitude hold will cure that if your E has it). The J was faster by several knots but you mention putting "the mods" on the E which could mean just about anything. Do you have a strong preference for a manual vs electric gear; most people do? Keep in mind that the oldest J is still 12 years newer than a '65 E which may or may not make a difference. A nice '65 E is way better than a run out J. But comparing apples to apples (similar condition/equipment) I'd take the J myself, but your mission may be different than mine. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote
Pictreed Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Posted December 28, 2015 The issue is the price of around $50k instead of $115-&130k. I know I'll be past that amount with the E mods...windshield, avionics, and auto pilot. However, they are willing to invest the initial price of the E and I can work on the rest. Quote
Pictreed Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Posted December 28, 2015 What is the carrying capacities of these two planes? Quote
jrwilson Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 If you type "m20e specifications" into google, you can find that out. Then do the same for "m20j"... Of course, it will vary with installed equipment. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
Bob_Belville Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 The difference in speed and fuel cost between Es and Js will be trivial. With similar engine time, panel, and paint and interior, I suppose an E would be priced quite a bit lower than a J. $15-$20K? But since most Es are 50 years old and most Js are 35 years old condition and avionics will vary greatly. I can't tell from your OP if you have your eye on 2 specific planes or are asking in general. If the latter, you should include F models in your search. An F is a "stretched" E or an "pre-LoPresti clean-up" J. I suppose $50,000 will buy a pretty decent E or a real dog of a J. Caution: A state of the art panel might cost north of $50K and some of the mods that brought 201 improvements to Es and Fs may no longer be available. Most folks here would advise paying more initially to get what you need rather than planning to pay retail for the improvements. 1 Quote
PTK Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 3 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: The difference in speed and fuel cost between Es and Js will be trivial... What is "trivial" Bob in your opinion? The difference in speed between an F and an E is "trivial" but the J is a solid 10 KTAS faster than both. Quote
Yetti Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 If you add up all the speed mods you could do to a F or an E it will be supersonic by the time you are done. 2 Quote
rbridges Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 if you could get similarly equipped E or J, J is a no brainer IMO. If you're seeing how much plane you can get with a certain price limit, then maybe an E. I'd rather have a nicely spec'd E than a stock J. Keep in mind that the J is longer and will give back seat passengers more leg room. The F and J are more comparable as far as inerior. Unless you find an E with the J cowling and windshield, the J will always be a little faster. 1 Quote
HRM Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 55 minutes ago, Yetti said: If you add up all the speed mods you could do to a F or an E it will be supersonic by the time you are done. My E is already Super. 2 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 1 hour ago, PTK said: What is "trivial" Bob in your opinion? The difference in speed between an F and an E is "trivial" but the J is a solid 10 KTAS faster than both. I'm calling 10 kts trivial in this context. There probably is a 10 kt difference between examples of each of these models. I usually flight plan my 50 year old M20E @ 155 kts. Do you flight plan your J at 165 or higher? 1 Quote
Marauder Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 The 1990 J is a different beast than a 1978 J or a 65 E. A lot of your decision should depend on your capital budget as well as your operating budget. If your company can afford a 1990 J. The operating cost should be similar, I would buy it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
carusoam Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 1) 50 AMU for a two seater... 2) 100 AMU for a four seater... 3) you intend to fly yourself to the job... How are you going to present that to the Boss? Give him some choices... Unlike personal GA decisions, this one has the economics of a business involved. it may make sense to start with the smaller plane. Demonstrate it's value, safety and speed. If you hit all the marks, like consistently flying to three customers in a day vs one in two days upgrade to an Acclaim... If you over promise, and are unable to capatilize on the J, the extra 50AMU tied up in a plane that is under used won't go over very well. It will be the same as "$50k wasted on the new guy, why did we hire him anyway..?" Under promise, and over deliver (upod) will be a better philosophy than opud. Some disclosure: before retiring, I used to buy and sell machines for a small corporation. put on your corporate finance hat when you are talking business, -a- Quote
M20F Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 12 hours ago, Pictreed said: Price does come into it but it depends on the company. The mission is to get me to the job, do what I need to do with enough time to visit a few jobs in a day instead of 1 job in two days. Keep in mind you will need commercial certificate and 2nd class medical for this mission. Quote
carusoam Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 M20F, Can you expand on that thought? Flying to work and carrying another person related to the project is typical PP stuff. No? Best regards, -a- Quote
steingar Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 To my mind it comes down to one question. how badly do you need the back seat? If the answer is "badly", then get the J. Either sped the extra money to get a good one or get a ratty one. If you're like me you use the back seat infrequently. That's why I went looking specifically for a short bodied Mooney. Don't need the back seat, so why should I pay the premium to get it and pay to haul it around? 2 Quote
jrwilson Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 58 minutes ago, M20F said: Keep in mind you will need commercial certificate and 2nd class medical for this mission. 47 minutes ago, carusoam said: M20F, Can you expand on that thought? Flying to work and carrying another person related to the project is typical PP stuff. No? Best regards, -a- Yep, that is private rating, no commercial needed. Quote
Browncbr1 Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 E.... The extra 10" backseat legroom doesn't generate excess value for the company investment as described. Also, what will you tell your boss if you are stuck due to ice or whatever? Personally, if I were you, I would buy the plane you want with your own money and bill the company an hourly rate and let them pay for the hangar and insurance. Quote
johnbkeck Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 Hi Tim, Another vote for the 201 from me. I have a 1978 J with 2,800 hours, 1,000 smoh, O&N bladders, NDH, Aspen 1000, G530 (non-waas), Century III auto-pilot, JPI-711 engine monitor, Garmin Aera 810 (for nextrad wx), nice exterior paint and tired original interior. In this crap economy I doubt if I could get high $70's for it. I would try to buy a plane with as many upgrades as possible so you don't pay retail like the other poster said. Check FlightAware N201AJ for how often it flies. It is amazing how far they go on how little fuel. You will see slower speeds as I was experimenting with LOP operations. I seem to always encounter a headwind and my speeds are often 130-140 kts but other times I love seeing 170-185kts with a tailwind. Texas will be an awesome place to enjoy a Mooney with the good weather and no too much icing. It seems like the C and E models have some high asking prices these days compared to the J prices. All American in Texas might know of some off-market Mooneys for you. John Quote
flight2000 Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 1 hour ago, jrwilson said: Yep, that is private rating, no commercial needed. If he (Pictreed) owns the plane, I agree it's private pilot all day long and he can get normal reimbursement as if he was driving his own car to the work sites. If the company owns it, then it gets into commercial part 91 ops (i.e. flight department). Two separate scenarios and he will need the commercial/2nd Class Medical if he's not the owner. Think of it this way, he is acting as the pilot for the company even though he's also the passenger going to a work location. Brian Quote
HRM Posted December 28, 2015 Report Posted December 28, 2015 1 hour ago, flight2000 said: If the company owns it, then it gets into commercial part 91 ops (i.e. flight department). Two separate scenarios and he will need the commercial/2nd Class Medical if he's not the owner. Very much so two different scenarios. This is quite a complex 'mission', but still, in the end, a mission. You have to list out what you want to do, go fly some candidates, think about it, ask questions, do some spreadsheets, rinse and repeat. Thank god I did this and did not buy the Aerobat... Quote
Pictreed Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Posted December 28, 2015 10 hours ago, carusoam said: 1) 50 AMU for a two seater... 2) 100 AMU for a four seater... 3) you intend to fly yourself to the job... How are you going to present that to the Boss? Give him some choices... Unlike personal GA decisions, this one has the economics of a business involved. it may make sense to start with the smaller plane. Demonstrate it's value, safety and speed. If you hit all the marks, like consistently flying to three customers in a day vs one in two days upgrade to an Acclaim... If you over promise, and are unable to capatilize on the J, the extra 50AMU tied up in a plane that is under used won't go over very well. It will be the same as "$50k wasted on the new guy, why did we hire him anyway..?" Under promise, and over deliver (upod) will be a better philosophy than opud. Some disclosure: before retiring, I used to buy and sell machines for a small corporation. put on your corporate finance hat when you are talking business, -a- By the way, what is AMU. The E is in better shape but the J...I don't want to say this due to the back lash...had a G500. Ouch, that hurts to admit. I flew my Instrument Examiner's '65 E and was very impressed. I think it will fit the mission nicely. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted December 29, 2015 Report Posted December 29, 2015 An AMU (Aviation Money Unit) is 1000USD. Quote
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