What's with brokers?

[ryoder]

Some planes are offered below market and are in above average condition.  If you find one don't be shy and cheap.  I think my plane was one of these deals.  Or maybe Mooneys are just undervalued but when I saw the condition and capabilities I could get for 20k I had to have it.

[RobertGary1]

As with real estate price is related to speed of sale. At market price it may take 6-8 months to sell. If you see a true fire sale the plane will move fast.  

[anthonydesmet]

 

 

 

 

I've had very good luck in buying aircraft where I have hired an aviation broker to represent me. Sure I have to pay him a fee, but in every case, he has rejected aircraft I didn't think we're so bad, found defective titles, and negotiated prices well below asking prices - prices I would have been embarrassed to have offered as a counter.

 

 

Agree with Bennett.  you just haven't found the right guy yet.  Sure there are a lot of untrustworthy brokers out there like in any business. I pretty much went through the same thing as Bennett with my broker Greg Hermans here on the east coast.  Each time we walked away from an airplane (3 x pre-buys) I was glad I had someone on my side. If you hired him, he should be working for you. You already have a pretty good list of honest brokers mentioned in this thread and you can probably search for more. I wouldn't be to worried about finding one that has an inventory of aircraft.  Just find a guy that's going to be your advocate and you fell comfortable with.  As much as I what I know now about the purchase process I still don't think I would go in it alone if I decide to move onto another aircraft. It's your money (and essential your life) on the line, you want someone that puts his reputation on the line.

[druidjaidan]

I got pmed for an update so I figured I'd give an update. We managed to negotiate a contract though there was much nashing of teeth, and accusations that I didn't trust him (duh, he doesn't work for me). We got most of what I wanted,  still a seller biased contract imo, but it was acceptable enough. 

Went for a prebuy at LASAR. They found a handful of squawks, most quite minor, a few severe but easy to fix (gear preload is low, some rigging issues, and one of the pilot seat rail was not mounted on one side).  The most annoying thing is that the "no damage history" that just happened to have the smooth belly mod obviously had a gear up despite him claiming otherwise.  Wonder why he didn't scan that engine tear down for me, I think that would qualify as an "interesting" log entry. The gear up wasn't surprising and it happened in 94 and the engine got overhauled in 06 and a new prop in 07.  So I'm currently thinking it isn't a deal breaker.

The prebuy has a few things that need to be done and we need to negotiate who gets to pay for them, and I have to decide if the plane is worth what we offered after we factor in the gear up. 

Edited October 16, 2015 by druidjaidan

[anthonydesmet]

Exactly! You're on the right track, sorry its a little painful.  Buying process should be a little stressful but enjoyable as well.  You definitely have leverage now with the gear up IRT negotiating the price. In addition, it hopefully humbled your broker to work a little more for you if says he wasn't aware. I originally walked away from all gear up airplanes but then when I found mine that had in 92 gear up, my broker and I tore through the logbooks looking at who, when and how they did the repairs.  Since then it went through an additional overhaul at TBO in 2009.  Not knowing what your contract says, when you re-negotiate, if you don't already, I strongly suggest that the final purchase decision rests with you after a test flight.  Either flown by you if you are in the area or find someone in the area on your own with Mooney experience (pref a CFI) who can take the thing up and ring it out for you. For me, in reference to the gear up, I wanted to make sure the airplane flew strait, cruise numbers were close to advertised, the turbo worked at altitude, at slow airspeed the aircraft handled appropriately without any pre-mature stall. In addition to all avionics working as advertised. The test flight also came after I did an annual at the pre-buy.  Since I paid for the annual the seller know I was serious and didn't mind me wanting to do a test flight.  Also, if something had come up I knew I still might have to walk away if we couldn't come to terms.

[Bravoman]

I don't know. The totality of what you have described in this thread has enough bad karma that I believe I would leave this seller and his/her broker where I found them...

[RobertGary1]

A gear up 20 years ago will have absolutely no  affect on value. The one piece belly will add to value. If the broker is smart he will not let you use that to renegotiate.  

-Robert

[MyNameIsNobody]

Exactly! You're on the right track, sorry its a little painful.  Buying process should be a little stressful but enjoyable as well.  You definitely have leverage now with the gear up IRT negotiating the price. In addition, it hopefully humbled your broker to work a little more for you if says he wasn't aware. I originally walked away from all gear up airplanes but then when I found mine that had in 92 gear up, my broker and I tore through the logbooks looking at who, when and how they did the repairs.  Since then it went through an additional overhaul at TBO in 2009.  Not knowing what your contract says, when you re-negotiate, if you don't already, I strongly suggest that the final purchase decision rests with you after a test flight.  Either flown by you if you are in the area or find someone in the area on your own with Mooney experience (pref a CFI) who can take the thing up and ring it out for you. For me, in reference to the gear up, I wanted to make sure the airplane flew strait, cruise numbers were close to advertised, the turbo worked at altitude, at slow airspeed the aircraft handled appropriately without any pre-mature stall. In addition to all avionics working as advertised. The test flight also came after I did an annual at the pre-buy.  Since I paid for the annual the seller know I was serious and didn't mind me wanting to do a test flight.  Also, if something had come up I knew I still might have to walk away if we couldn't come to terms.

What, may I ask, does a GU have to do with a pre-mature stall?  What is damaged and repaired in a GU?  Wing damage?  Tail Damage?  This kind of post just makes me shake my head.  Why would the plane not "fly straight"?  What impact would the GU have on "cruise numbers"...?

[RobertGary1]

Unless the gear up repair includes replacing the wings for some reason, a gear up 5+ years ago is a nonevent. It's not going to affect the plane at all. A good percent of Mooneys have been gear up'd and after 5 years it has zero affect on resale. 

 

-Robert

[Bravoman]

It might not have an effect on resale, but it will most definetly have an effect on value. Any automobile or aircraft that has suffered damage of that magnitude will suffer a diminution in value. To put it differently I think it is unrealistic to think that the typical buyer would pay as much  for an aircraft that has had a gear up as the identical aircraft that has never been damaged. It is for that reason that the law allows for diminution of value in as a component of recoverable damages in property damage claims.

 

[RobertGary1]

 

That may be a personal opinion on your  part but everything I've read from brokers all over the country disagrees with that including AOPAs Mooney buying write ups. They insist it had no affect on value. And I believe it. After the repair and engine work there is no detectable difference in the plane. 

[Hank]

That may be a personal opinion on your  part but everything I've read from brokers all over the country disagrees with that including AOPAs Mooney buying write ups. They insist it had no affect on value. And I believe it. After the repair and engine work there is no detectable difference in the plane. 

Often the post-repair aircraft is superior to its pre-gear up condition:  fresh overhaul, new prop, new step, often a one piece belly conversion. And other annoying squawks often get fixed while it's in the shop. The GU event 4 years before I bought mine didn't bother me at all, I enjoy the one piece belly and 3-blade prop, to say nothing of the fresh engine overhaul.

[cnoe]

Quote:

Often the post-repair aircraft is superior to its pre-gear up condition:  fresh overhaul, new prop, new step, often a one piece belly conversion. And other annoying squawks often get fixed while it's in the shop.

Reply:

This may in fact be true, but you still must compare apples to apples. If there were two identical planes (i.e. the non-GU plane had a fresh overhaul, new prop, new step, 1-piece, and squawk repairs just like the GU plane) I'd opt for the NDH plane every time. To me (layman) it looks better on paper and affords me more peace of mind.

Many contend that simply landing on old pucks is detrimental to fuel tanks so I have to wonder how landing on NO pucks affects tank integrity. I'm pretty sure I've experienced turbulence comparable to a GU but all that scraping wreaks havoc on my psyche.

Now I'm 100% certain that there are many GU Mooneys out there that are WAY nicer than my non-GU plane, but my personal purchasing experience was that GU planes came with a modest discount. Sellers will argue that a GU has no effect on price but buyers would argue otherwise. Just my opinion.

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[Hank]

I recall reading ~2007 when I bought mine that a recent gear up would lower the value ~10%, but there was no change for one 10 years old or older. Not sure if the market thinking has changed since then, although values sure fell off a cliff . . .

[RobertGary1]

I recall reading ~2007 when I bought mine that a recent gear up would lower the value ~10%, but there was no change for one 10 years old or older. Not sure if the market thinking has changed since then, although values sure fell off a cliff . . .

I believe that is true. A recent gear up can affect value. But after a few years few buyers care. In truth a belly slide is rarely traumatic for the airframe. 

 

-Robert

[ryoder]

I have asked a few A&Ps about landing on old pucks damaging the tank sealant and they looked at me like I was crazy and said no that won't affect the sealant.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I wouldn't want to wreak havoc on anyone's psyche...

[druidjaidan]

A gear up 20 years ago will have absolutely no  affect on value. The one piece belly will add to value. If the broker is smart he will not let you use that to renegotiate.  

-Robert

The one piece belly was already priced into our negotiations since I was aware of that up front, I had already added value to my initial offer based on comping it with the smooth belly.  The one piece belly simply means the gear up should have been disclosed up front and justified with a high quality repair.  It wasn't, so it wasn't priced into my offer.  It doesn't scare me away from the plane one bit.  However, it's completely unrealistic to say that a 2 identical planes with smooth belly mods, one that has a gear up and one that doesn't would be identical value.  The one with the gear up is worth less, apples to apples.  It means I now need to disclose it if/when I go to resell it.  I can't in good faith put "no damage history" in my ad.  That means the plane has lost some amount of value.  Maybe when I go to sell it that lost value will be small enough to be lost in the noise, but maybe not.  

How much that value is certainly is up for negotiation.  In our case it ended up being worth about 4% of the price.  I can't say what would have happened if it had been disclosed up front, but honestly hiding it seems like a bad call to me if as you say all the sources say that an older gear up has little to no impact on the value.  Especially since the repair seems to be good quality.

Edited October 19, 2015 by druidjaidan

[RobertGary1]

It's hard to say if it was an honest mistake or not. I wouldn't worry about an older gear up because it has no aftect on appraised value. If this was a 2010'ish plane it would be a different story. 

-Rovert

[larryb]

I looked at a 231 marketed NDH. Right there in the logs was a gear up. I didn't trust the seller after that. Mistake or not, if he says NDH he should have at least read the logs.

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[aaronk25]

Fwiw landing on the belly actually is about a medium-soft landing. Most newbies will land a lot harder transitioning.

Don't ask how I know. Pretty uneventful. I didn't even get out of the plane cause it was 0-f outside. Fix the belly new engine and prop good to go.....no big deal.

[Bravoman]

You mean "peace" of mind. Not like giving someone "a piece of your mind."

(Sorry, I got a Bachelors in Languarts Arts -Secondary Education. Then, after college, I went to Army Officer Basic and Flight School. It is always preferable to tell someone in proper English you're going to kill them, right before you pull the trigger.)

I couldn't agree more. If it's your money, then it should be you calling the shots. Not being rude or unreasonable, or uncompromising, but nevertheless, you should have your say and a lot of things your way - not meaning you should be insensitive to what a seller must go through either. 

I've only bought a plane and yet to sell one, so my experience is one-sided for sure ...

You are right on the spelling. That's Siri for you!

[druidjaidan]

And the saga continues.  So it's been a few weeks.  After we negotiated a discount based on the prebuy results, we told LASAR to proceed with a few repairs that were needed:  A rigging, preload adjust, SB 217, and a few other things.  ABout two days after we told LASAR to proceed, we get an email from NAFCO:  the title has issues.  Small clerical stuff; a bill of sale from 1977 where someone left "Ltd." off a company name, 2 lien releases from the 80's that were signed off by an secretary instead of an officer of the bank.

Fantastic.

Weeks of back and forth with the broker's assistant while he tries to tack the lein's back through bank consolidations and find someone left alive from the bill of sale issue. The bank issue is relatively straight forward and he tracks down the bank and they are sending out the paperwork. However this past Monday night:  "Nobody is alive from the company that bought the plane in '77 we won't be able to clear the title, but here's a guy who will do the loan anyway".  Tuesday morning I send a rather scathing email about the Seller's only job in this whole thing was to provide clear title and how one of the Broker's first emails to me he said "We guarantee clear title to the buyer before, during, and after the sale".  About an hour later somehow the paperwork for the bill of sale issue miraculously gets solved because someone tracked down the last remaining alive individual who is able to sign an amendment to the bill of sale and send it along.

Here's the hitch:  My loan docs expire this Friday.  Tomorrow now.  None of the paperwork fixes have shown up at Aerospace Reports as of today.  Then I ask him to email me copies of the fixed paperwork just for my records.  I take a look.  The bill of sale amendment looks perfect.  But what's this?  The lien doc?  Why is there only 1 lien document fix?  That guy failed to pay attention to the title report that indicated 2 liens with the same bank had been improperly released and get both of them taken care of.

Yeah...so now I get to redo my loan docs, cancel Southwest, unbook my time off, etc.  All because of the sloppiness of this broker.

Edited November 6, 2015 by druidjaidan

[Hank]

Sounds like you need to give that genius broker a piece of your mind! Once you get the plane home and fly it some, you should achieve peace of mind.  

Your situation is seriously frustrating! But it can also happen when buying directly from the seller, and not only when going through a broker. Personally, I can't believe that a sale from 30+ years ago with the entire company name clearly written except for "Ltd." at the end would be a problem. Sounds like your real problem, like so many of us, is the over proliferation of lawyers, who don't have enough business and drum up as many mist to pick as possible. The classic Shakespearean solution comes to mind . . .

soon this will be behind you, and in a few years much of the unpleasantness will be forgotten (but not the lesson). 

[Alan Fox]

Old title issues are usually not a problem , I am trying to understand why people think a one piece belly is a plus , because it reduces the payload ????  or because it requires two people to install it ???? I know for a fact it doesn't make it go any faster.....Oh yea it makes it easier to annual because it has less screws.....Oh wait a minute.....everybody uses power screwdrivers now.....  I know , allows you to cut out the damaged stringers from a gear up so you don't have to repair it correctly........That's it...      Make no mistake about it , if your Mooney has a smooth belly upgrade , it was geared up.....