Mooney down in Atlantic

[MyNameIsNobody]

Super sorry to hear of this loss...

[gsengle]

It's clear something bad happened from the radar data you can see on flight aware. Last data point had ground speed way down despite 5000fpm downward

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[IndyTim]

If the times on LiveATC and FlightAware are accurate, ATC had lost contact with him before the descent started.  Also is a descent of over 1600 ft/min normal in an Acclaim? Regardless a terrible tragedy. 

18:33:55 - KACY Approach tries to reach 370MM

18:34:44 - KACY Approach tries again and asks for an Ident

18:35:55 - Wash Center tries to reach 370MM

18:36:05 - Wash Center tries again

18:37:52 - Descent begins from FL25

18:38:53 - Descent at 1600+ ft/min

18:42:34 - Approach calls again

18:42:37 - Wash Center tries again

They were making good ground speed most of the flight.  I expect they stayed high for speed and/or clear air, as long as they could.  1600fpm is very doable.  Until I saw the timeline I figured this was a normal descent, since it's pretty consistent all the way down to 13400.  But now I'm not so sure, because of timing of the comms issues.  I wonder if there was some sort of electrical issue, causing radio problems and then instrument failure leading to disorientation in IMC?  I'm guessing....  

Edited September 11, 2015 by IndyTim

[Bravoman]

Terrible. A friend of mine just told me today about the Bo that went down near Greensboro a couple of days ago. Was Dr. Moir a member of this forum?

[Houman]

This is terribly sad news for his wife and family and our extended Mooney family, may he rest in peice.

 

[Marauder]

Totally heartbroken, I followed his flight since I'm going to the PPP, he went over my airport kig t 25000 ft, and I wondered how he was coming down only 50 or so miles, I waited about 6 hours for the wx to clear and I landed in AC about an hour after he was lost. At 25000 the temp was -17... This all relates to the post yesterday re conservative decisions, I utilized my departure airport as my alternate just in cast the wx did not move out as the radar showed..as I'm crying right now my heart goes to his wife and family, it's my understanding she stayed home..there are just to many tragedies at this point, we have the latest equip. With loads of knowledge...God bless him..

They were making good ground speed most of the flight.  I expect they stayed high for speed and/or clear air, as long as they could.  1600fpm is very doable.  Until I saw the timeline I figured this was a normal descent, since it's pretty consistent all the way down to 13400.  But now I'm not so sure, because of timing of the comms issues.  I wonder if there was some sort of electrical issue, causing radio problems and then instrument failure leading to disorientation in IMC?  I'm guessing....  

I recorded the lat/long from FlightAware when the flight began a descent, then plotted it on Garmin Pilot. The plane was still at 25,000 feet only a few miles from Atlantic City.

I'm not a turbo owner with speed brakes, but even if he was flying the ILS to 31, that is a lot of altitude to lose. I hope this is not another hypoxia accident. All I do know it is tragic.

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[wiguy]

 Sad for sure, he had been flying for a good number of years. It sounds like hypoxia could be the cause, yes early.

 

     

[donkaye]

1600FPM would be a walk in the park with the brakes out, but keeping the ears clear would be a challenge.  I think there is more to this unfortunate tragedy than bad weather. RIP

Speed brakes would be totally inappropriate with OAT -17°C.  They would freeze up.  Gear down, prop back to bottom of the green arc, throttle slowly brought back to about 20" then 15".  1600 ft/min would normally not be a problem, but with convection the speed restriction to Va would demand a much lower descent rate.  From our weather and risk discussion yesterday, that flight was a no go from the start.  The weather looked pretty bad....

Edited September 11, 2015 by donkaye

[DXB]

Very sad to hear of this tragedy  - my deepest condolences to the spouse and family.

I do hope more evidence emerges to suggest what went wrong at FL250 that caused the missed radio calls and delayed the descent. Hypoxia is suspect but may prove hard to distinguish from other medical causes of incapacitation.

[Houman]

Speed brakes would be totally inappropriate with OAT -17°C.  They would freeze up.  Gear down, prop back to bottom of the green arc, throttle slowly brought back to about 20" then 15".  1600 ft/min would normally not be a problem, but with convection the speed restriction to Va would demand a much lower descent rate.  From our weather and risk discussion yesterday, that flight was a no go from the start.  The weather looked pretty bad....

yeah, I was surprised by the appparent drop in groundspeed so fast, something wrong with the data or really wrong with the plane...

This is a tragedy but what comes to mind is a saying alot of pilots say around here : it take 45 hours to learn how to fly, but a life time to learn when to fly. 

This year I missed the Mooney Caravan because of weather, it was very frustrating, spending 2 full days at the airport waiting for a window to leave, but everytime either me or my copilot were uneasy about something in the forecast, so we waited until we both were ok with the weather and gave a mutual and confident go before we launched. We all wished he would have delayed his launch or that the outcome would be different. Sad situation.

We need to learn from these tragedies, understand why and how it happen and educate ourselves to avoid similar situations.

May he rest in piece.

[mooneygirl]

My thoughts and prayers are with his family.  So very sad.

[Shadrach]

Speed brakes would be totally inappropriate with OAT -17°C.  They would freeze up.  Gear down, prop back to bottom of the green arc, throttle slowly brought back to about 20" then 15".  1600 ft/min would normally not be a problem, but with convection the speed restriction to Va would demand a much lower descent rate.  From our weather and risk discussion yesterday, that flight was a no go from the start.  The weather looked pretty bad....

Intersting Don. I'm not equipped so I'm not as familiar with what's appropriate.  So if one is leaving an altitude that is subfreezing and decending into warm air, freezing up is a concern? I know that folks avoid operation under certain circumstances in the winter. I had no idea that it was a concern when decending into 80df air. Am I understanding you or are you saying that deploying speed brakes under the circumstances risks ice accumulation?

[bonal]

As I end this day my thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends and God speed to our fellow Mooney pilot. 

[donkaye]

Intersting Don. I'm not equipped so I'm not as familiar with what's appropriate.  So if one is leaving an altitude that is subfreezing and decending into warm air, freezing up is a concern? I know that folks avoid operation under certain circumstances in the winter. I had no idea that it was a concern when decending into 80df air. Am I understanding you or are you saying that deploying speed brakes under the circumstances risks ice accumulation?

It doesn't only risk it, it is just about a certainty if your are descending into cloud in below zero conditions..  I made that mistake once many years ago.  Never again.  They froze in the UP position.

 

[donkaye]

As I end this day my thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends and God speed to our fellow Mooney pilot. 

And as is often the case, the routing is just about clear now.

[mike_elliott]

With the VNC capability of the g700, a constant speed decent would negate the need of speedbrakes.

[gsengle]

Unless you're coming in over "the mountains" or get that ATC slam dunk...

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[mike_elliott]

No mountains, and no ATC slam dunk from the tapes. An ATC slam dunk would warrant "unable" if it would require you to decent faster than Va in this wx and turbulence.

[gsengle]

Was speaking generally... This case is different.

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[RocketAviator]

Prayers for God's Peace & comfort for the wife & family.

[fantom]

There but for the grace of God, go I.....

Sometimes, in the deepest recesses of your mind, you gotta ask yourself, 'Is it worth it?'.

RIP

 

[donkaye]

There but for the grace of God, go I.....

Sometimes, in the deepest recesses of your mind, you gotta ask yourself, 'Is it worth it?'.

RIP

 

In this case I don't know.  IMHO it was clearly a no go for a Mooney, even an Acclaim.  Had he called and asked me I'd have said, "It looks like the front is moving rather quickly, wait and go later or in the morning.  Think of your family--and yourself.  Do you really need to get there today?"

[gsengle]

Would have been a no go for me.

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[mike_elliott]

No contact with ATC for 2 hrs prior to lost radar contact if this report is true.

http://m.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/ntsb-no-radio-contact-from-aircraft-for-two-hours-prior/article_57330500-57f5-11e5-8987-7b62101c438b.html?mode=jqm

Above FL18 the game really changes. So sad. We will be reaching out to Jean.

[Houman]

Would have been a no go for me.

 

 

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I think that point is mute, he went, for what ever reason or reasoning he used, I think most would agree that the weather situation was not optimal or far far from it.

I think we should look at the facts and the NTSB investiguation that will follow and learn from that, we were not in that plane, so we can't be sure what really happend until we have some hard facts.

My opinion only !!!