Thoughts on purchase of M20C?

[Raptor05121]

Honestly, with the current situation, the plane is honestly worth the 22.9k, IMHO. If he didn't move a dollar, I would still purchase it. But whatever I can get him down to only works in my favor when it comes time for annual. Stay tuned.

[ryoder]

Everything is negotiable. I understand why one might let a plane that is not being flown fall out of annual. It's the smartest move from a cash flow standpoint. An annual does nothing to ensure that the aircraft is preserved, storing it in doors out of the elements is the best way to ensure its preservation. If the plane has flown 5hrs since its last annual, why spend $1800 to inspect it unless one has a buyer? It's conceivable that a plane could sit on the market for 2 annual cycles or more if it's priced wrong. Almost any type of equipment should be bought on condition and time in service; if the plane is solid an annual at sale time becomes part of the negotiation.

If this thing is as clean and corrosion free (both airframe and power plant) as it looks and the transaction is in the range discussed, then Alex has really gotten a lot of performance per dollar.

Yes you are right if it's not being flown don't annual it just preserve it. Mine was preserved for almost fifteen years like that with an inspection every five years.

[Raptor05121]

We went and looked at the logs. Everything is tight and proper. No questionable entries. All AD's are complied with per his last annual which ran out in 2014. I'm still waiting on a BlackStone labs report on the oil, as well as my IA to open the filters before I commit. Hopefully this week we can get this done, Maybe be flying it PIC by Sept 1st.

[ryoder]

Great!

[ShermAv8tor]

I keep fairly precise records of my flying expenses (and out of sight from the wife). The range of actual cash outlay to fly my Mooney annually will range from $16 AMU to $24 AMU. The fixed costs are exactly that; plane payment, hangar/tiedown, database subs, insurance. The variable costs include fuel, maintenance/annual, fees and reserves.

I agree with the others, a partnership would be the way to go until your income can support the habit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I keep seeing the abbreviation AMU? What is that? In chemistry I remember atomic mass unit…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DonMuncy]

AMU = Aviation monetary unit = $1000. Used to tell your wife I need a new widget and it only costs 2 AMU.

[ryoder]

AMU = Aviation monetary unit = $1000. Used to tell your wife I need a new widget and it only costs 2 AMU.

 

My AMUs are in hundreds

[RobertGary1]

AMU = Aviation monetary unit = $1000. Used to tell your wife I need a new widget and it only costs 2 AMU.

Yea. Since it's rare for anything to end up costing less than $1000 there is no point in more precision.

-Robert

[donkaye]

As a landlord in the Silicon Valley, I have the opportunity to see the average salaries of the Engineers working at Google and Apple.  I also know the average rents in the area.  A small 1,100 sq ft house goes for about $4,200.mo.  That house will sell for $1,500,000 in a couple of days and maybe generate overbids in the neighborhood of $100,000 to $200,000.  Buyers are almost always from India or China.  Americans are gone from the scene.  Salaries for people out of school a few years run between $150,000-$200,000 per year.  I've seen a husband and wife making $250,000 who can barely afford renting a condo for $3,500/mo.  Flying and maintaining a Bravo, admittedly more expensive than a C, costs a minimum of $30,000/year flying it just over 100 hr/yr.

 

Things are definitely getting out of hand here.  Owning an airplane is not for the faint of heart.

[M20F]

Flying and maintaining a Bravo, admittedly more expensive than a C, costs a minimum of $30,000/year flying it just over 100 hr/yr.

How do you come up with $30k minimum per year to fly a Bravo even factoring loss of capital? Aviation isn't cheap but if you have a good airframe and staged maintenance after a year or so of ownership you shouldn't be spending at minimum $30k to fly a Mooney.

[DonMuncy]

You don't know how many subscriptions Don has to pay to support his panel.

[DonMuncy]

Sorry, forgot my smiley.

[Marauder]

How do you come up with $30k minimum per year to fly a Bravo even factoring loss of capital? Aviation isn't cheap but if you have a good airframe and staged maintenance after a year or so of ownership you shouldn't be spending at minimum $30k to fly a Mooney.

My guess is the reserves. My F will be in the $180/hr for a 100/yr. a lot of pilots don't count the tangibles, like Nav subscriptions, IFR certs, etc. If you go purely on all costs, including reserves, it does add up.

In fact, so much that I have a special accounting system in place so the wife only sees the "wet" costs. I know, I'm bad...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ryoder]

My guess is the reserves. My F will be in the $180/hr for a 100/yr. a lot of pilots don't count the tangibles, like Nav subscriptions, IFR certs, etc. If you go purely on all costs, including reserves, it does add up.

In fact, so much that I have a special accounting system in place so the wife only sees the "wet" costs. I know, I'm bad...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My wife has three horses. I see none of the bills and it's better that way

[ArtVandelay]

Its not the absolute cost that matters, it's the cost/hour, if you spend more, you balance that by flying more   

[M20F]

My guess is the reserves. My F will be in the $180/hr for a 100/yr. a lot of pilots don't count the tangibles, like Nav subscriptions, IFR certs, etc. If you go purely on all costs, including reserves, it does add up.

I have an F with some Maxwell annuals, insurance, subscriptions, and a freshly overhauled motor I just did. Even if I factor upgrades I have done over the past 5yrs (including an MVP-50) I am in for $150 a year over 5yrs and that is going to be substantively lower for several years now (not factoring capital) to where when I look at 10yrs since purchase it should work to about $110-120.

Ownership is a lot more than gas obviously but $240-300 per hour for a Bravo seems high.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I have an F with some Maxwell annuals, insurance, subscriptions, and a freshly overhauled motor I just did. Even if I factor upgrades I have done over the past 5yrs (including an MVP-50) I am in for $150 a year over 5yrs and that is going to be substantively lower for several years now (not factoring capital) to where when I look at 10yrs since purchase it should work to about $110-120.

Ownership is a lot more than gas obviously but $240-300 per hour for a Bravo seems high.

 

Before depreciation (plane cost + upgrade cost - sale of plane), it cost me about $145/hour to fly my M20K 110 hours per year from June 2011 to July 2013.  I have the exact number down to the penny at home.  Add a $20/hr engine overhaul reserve to that.

 

The Bravo will burn an extra $30 or so in gas per hour, stuff costs more in CA (my hangar was $150/mo...I'm sure Don's is more).  The Bravo engine reserve needs to be about $25/hour.

 

The heavier airframe adds expense to the gear donuts, etc.  I bet $300/hour is right on target.

[RobertGary1]

And those engine reserve times assume a pretty much perfect engine at overhaul time. If parts such as the crank, etc are worn the overhaul cost goes up. For my IO-360-A3B6 Lycoming charged me a total of $20K additional due to the condition of my core. I'm sure a Bravo engine would be closer to $30K additional.

 

-Robert

[Marauder]

Before depreciation (plane cost + upgrade cost - sale of plane), it cost me about $145/hour to fly my M20K 110 hours per year from June 2011 to July 2013.  I have the exact number down to the penny at home.  Add a $20/hr engine overhaul reserve to that.

 

The Bravo will burn an extra $30 or so in gas per hour, stuff costs more in CA (my hangar was $150/mo...I'm sure Don's is more).  The Bravo engine reserve needs to be about $25/hour.

 

The heavier airframe adds expense to the gear donuts, etc.  I bet $300/hour is right on target.

 

 

And those engine reserve times assume a pretty much perfect engine at overhaul time. If parts such as the crank, etc are worn the overhaul cost goes up. For my IO-360-A3B6 Lycoming charged me a total of $20K additional due to the condition of my core. I'm sure a Bravo engine would be closer to $30K additional.

 

-Robert

 

I think a lot of owners (and their significant others) would be surprised at the true operating cost of an airplane. If you really track all of your operating expenses, you would wonder why we do this.

 

I had an issue with my StormScope picking up errant RF emissions from my 20 year old Whelen belly strobe. The upgrade kit designed to deal with this was $183. If I flew just 100 hours, that added $1.83 per hour. 3 attempts to fix the Barfco radio, $6/hr -- the list goes on and on. I think the thing that really needs to be calculate in is the engine reserve. Yeah, it's not money spent now, but if you need it, you will wish you sequestered it.

[Hank]

This is why I break my expenses into two categories:  Fixed and Operating expenses.

 

Operating expenses are what it costs me to fly. They are hourly--fuel, oil, filters, tires, etc.

 

Fixed expenses are those things that people like to divide by the approximate number of hours they plan to fly. Hangar/tie down, GPS data, annual, IFR cert, insurance, etc. My insurance rate, paid in advance every year, does not fluctuate if I fly more or less, nor does my hangar rent. Annual is pretty regular, too, plus required parts that vary.

 

So I'm at so much per year to own the plane and keep it in flyable condition, plus it costs me so much per hour. No, I don't divide hangar rent by hours flown to get an hourly expense on my hangar. Why not? Ask the NE flyers who couldn't get into their hangars for a couple of months. Did their operating expenses change? If you divide constant hangar rent by reduced hours, each hour cost more money. Baloney! Their operating expenses went down because the plane was not operating.

 

It is possible to come up with a total "hourly expense," but with such a large chunk of fixed expenses, changing the number of hours flown will make a huge change in hourly expenses. If it was possible to fly more and spend less money, all of us CBs would do that.     Makes me wish it did work that way . . .

 

It's like trying to come up with an annual budget in advance. How much are you going to fly? What are gas prices going to be? You really can't say, any change in fuel prices will either blow your budget or you'll come in way under, because of nothing that you did or can affect.

[MB65E]

I'd rather not add the hourly cost on my E. I'm at day 3 of my annual. My airplane partner is helping. We are 42 man hours into the inspection.

I don't know where the 20hrs comes from. Maybe, 20 hrs with no service items and no issues.

I can see 30k on a bravo for sure!!

-Matt

[Parker_Woodruff]

When you need that last minute transportation to somewhere that only some regional airline connected to some hub can get you too, plus TSA $5.60 each way fee, having that plane is awesome.

Or the amount I didn't spend on hotels because I could accomplish all my work in Florida in a single day with my M20K.

Or that last minute FL-TX run that would be a $400 one-way flight is accomplished on $240 in gas. And door-to-door was just as fast as AAmerican't

[donkaye]

How do you come up with $30k minimum per year to fly a Bravo even factoring loss of capital? Aviation isn't cheap but if you have a good airframe and staged maintenance after a year or so of ownership you shouldn't be spending at minimum $30k to fly a Mooney.

 

A quick look at last year expenses  4/1/14 to 3/31/15:

 

Hangar                                   6,800

Insurance                               2,600

Taxes                                      1,800

Annual                                    6,000

Maintenance (+/-)                   6,000

Fuel   (5.50x20x100)             11,000

Wash                                         450

Database Subscriptions         1,500

                                              --------

                                              35,830

 

This year will be much more on maintenance due to needing 2 cylinders overhauled due leak in the intake valve guides and the turbocharger overhauled.  Note there is not reserve for engine overhaul.  I'll just pay cash for it when it's due.

[M20F]

I guess we look at minimum differently and $12k for annual plus on going maintenance is a lot in my book. I can compare the annuals/work Maxwell has done (think you use Lasar if I remember from previous posts) and not even close to $12k per year. Probably like most I run my numbers to the penny and just don't walk way away with $360 a year to operate. I have friends running turbo twins with less than that. Thanks for sharing your numbers though.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I guess we look at minimum differently and $12k for annual plus on going maintenance is a lot in my book. I can compare the annuals/work Maxwell has done (think you use Lasar if I remember from previous posts) and not even close to $12k per year. Probably like most I run my numbers to the penny and just don't walk way away with $360 a year to operate. I have friends running turbo twins with less than that. Thanks for sharing your numbers though.

 

You're somewhat correct.  But in my case of an M20K, have that back alternator off twice in a year and you just realized you dropped $2,500 on alternator maintenance in one year.  So I see how Don's $12,000 in annual maintenance is possible.

 

It happened to me.  Once was a coupler clutch and not a few months later the alternator quit.

 

My M20J flew 300 hours in 20 months at a cost of approximately $100/hour.  Didn't keep things down the penny on that one, so I couldn't tell you for sure.  $50/mo shade hangar in Waco, TX helped, too.