Hosshawk Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 1965 IO360A1A, 1600TTSN 1110SMOH (1973) 42 years ago. I believe the overhaul was done because of a valve AD. Flown every year a minimum of 20 hours. Compressions mid 70's. No internal corrosion or pitting. Burns a quart of oil every 12 hours or so with good oil pressure. 10 hours since gear up inspection. How would you price this engine on an aircraft purchase? Mid-time? Run-out? All responses will be greatly appreciated. Bob Been on the site about five months. Owned a 65 M20E twenty-two years ago. Starting to get the itch again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Price it as run out. Run it day VFR only until you're comfortable with its reliability. Then on condition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Depends on who is trying to sell it, what part of the country it was in, who put it together, what was the scope and detail of the prop strike inspection? Was it taken all the way down and reassembled with new parts? Or was the crank gear inspected and slapped back together. Based off of my learning curve with a 1200hr/28 year SMOH io-360-a1a, I can tell you that I'd price it as not only run out but plan on scrapping 10k worth of parts while your in there. I was only able to salvage the Crank, one rod, accessory case, and sump. Granted mine may have been a worse case situation, but I was shocked how well it ran vs. how bad it really was. What's the S/n, are the middle numbers 4 digits? (L-xxxx-51A) I'm just curious. Mine had the 4 digit middle, the shops I had rework done were shocked mine was that old. I think the IO-360 line started at S/n 1000 or 1100? I can't confirm, but might be a good guess. If I was purchasing the engine I would pass on the transaction. Good luck! Welcome back to an M20 hopefully! -Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 That engine is years old with not much flying... The inspection part of the PPI would require removing a cylinder to inspect the cam health at a minimum. How / where has it been stored? In the end, your back to the advice given above... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 High time and low flying hours. Just pay attention and get a good prebuy. I agree on the "price as runout" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs007 Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Depending on what you're looking for sounds like it COULD be good opportunity; Nobody will give more than "runout" value but you'll likely get a few hundred hours out of it. On the other hand, is it worth the trouble? Even giving this one "runout" value, you're still probably better off going for an engine with 400-1000hrs on it and an overhaul <15 yrs old. Everything has a price. Definitely make sure the prebuy inspection is thorough on the engine if you continue with this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hosshawk Posted July 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Thanks everyone for the responses. I believe the airplane has spent most of it's time in Georgia and Tennessee. Matt, IT WAS a gear crank inspection but something was replaced and upgraded. I believe the gear crank? Don't remember the S/n. Anthony, the current owner said that he scoped the cam and it was clean. The main reason I've been considering this airplane is because the airframe is corrosion free. Got to see it in half after shipping, and gutted during the repair process. It also has a 530W and 55X installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Well shoot, if you get the engine with a clean airframe and a 530W with an Autopilot... If it's priced as run out, that's still a lot of boxes that are checked. The Airframe corrosion is the largest box I believe. Double check the troubled corrosion areas on the airframe and have fun!! I thought you were looking at a core engine... If the airframe only has 1600TT too that's really low now days... -Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve65E-NC Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Make sure to look at all engine ADs. Two areas that come to mind are the several on rear gears in the oil pump area and the change to the oil line that runs from the prop governor to the front of the engine. Also check any ADs on the prop and hub. Many IO360s need a top overhaul at about this many hours. I agree about pulling a cylinder to look at the cam. Not that hard a job for a skilled A&P. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 People who say pulling a cylinder is a good thing have probably never done it.And then all you learn is that the cam/lifters look good now. Does not mean they will last 10 or 50 more hours. It would be an all day job then you have to do trust flight hours. Pull #3 if that floats your boat. The nice thing about an older engine with original parts is that the metal in the components is better than the 90s metallurgy. Fly it till it makes metal in the oil filter. New engine or old engine you are going to have to drop some coin on it at some point. When were the mags done last? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AESpecialists Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Think of the engine as a runout core at the cheap end of the spectrum. Lycoming (and Continental) both have 12 year calendar TBO's for a reason. In 42 years there is an entire binder full of AD's and SB's that most likely have not been complied with. All of the seals and gaskets are well beyond their 'sell by' dates, and while it may not yet, as soon as you start putting some time on it, I'll wager it will leak oil like a sieve. The estimate of $10K in additional parts may not be too far off, sadly. Between AD required repairs, and corrosion that might be a conservative estimate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Man of those older Lycoming engines also had 7/16 valves which had a 1200 hour TBO and had a nasty habit of breaking off 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F-1968 Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 If the airframe is corrosion free and in good condition I would consider the plane at the right price. At 1600 hours, I would take the older engine (yes the older metallurgy is reported to be better) and rebuild it in any case. The 530 and 55 autopilot are certainly a plus. The engine can be taken out, and put into excellent condition, comply with the oil pump gear AD and change all the accessories. You will also have an engine with two separate mags (not the siamese mag). John Breda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hosshawk Posted July 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Lots of great feedback. But at this point I don't think the current owner will let the airplane go at the runout price. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Then he is delusional. If that isn't runout what is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Some knowledgable owners really want to buy a fully run-out engine on their next nice plane. There is always some level of competition for nice airframes... you won't know what the seller will do until you ask... Negotiate hard: Aim for lowest price. Expect to take a month to finish price discussions. Then the next few weeks going through PPI and paperwork. Risk the plane selling to somebody else. Risk the plane failing PPI AW issues with a delusional seller? Risk the summer being over without flying. Risk not getting all the benefits of follow up conversations about the plane. Negotiate softly: Aim to take the plane home. Expect to Get right into PPI and paperwork portion. Risk paying a higher price. Reward shortest time to flight. Receive the benefits of knowledge about the plane and its operation. When you are alone in the market. Take your time... The nicer the plane, the higher the risk of somebody else being interested... 1) desirable airframe 2) desirable exterior 3) desirable interior 4) desirable instrument panel 5) desirable engine type 6) hours since OH If this is your first plane purchase... Take too long to commit: 1) lose one or two opportunities while realizing how the process works best for you. Commit too quickly 1) miss out on other opportunities... Know what you want first, then go after it. What is the price difference between a fully run-out price and mid time price for this plane? (10AMU?) What is the OH price... in the 15 - 20AMU range? I have gone with two mid-time planes. And OH'd one.... Buying from someone you know, using soft negotiations seems to have good benefits. Using the scorched earth technique, not so much... Thoughts that come to mind. Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinerunner Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Also be patient about it even if you want it. After a year of not selling he might see reason. I offered 4K less than the seller was asking and he jumped on it after trying to sell my M20E for a year. He might not be reasonable right away but later.... Also I'd start shopping for my mechanic sooner rather than later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hosshawk Posted July 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 My objective this time around is to be patient. It seems to me to be a buyers market. With only the heavily discounted aircraft selling right away. And I don't see that changing anytime soon. So if I find something this year, that will be fine. But, if I don't find something till next year, that will be OK also. Regarding the aircraft I started this thread with, we're just too far apart on price after getting everyone's input on the engine. Time may change the disparity on price, but I'm not counting on it. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 A good deal comes along when: The seller thinks the price is too low... The buyer thinks the price is too high... Yet, they agree on this 'uncomfortable to both parties' price. When the buyer thinks the price is right, there is probably a lot of work to be done... When the seller thinks the price is right, he's just delusional in a happy way... The complexity of buying a plane is similar in complexity to buying a house, only there are fewer planes in the neighborhood for comparison... The comps are in a neighborhood hundreds of miles away. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 I am having a hard time getting past the "gear up inspection" only 10 hrs ago. Both manufacturers require a complete tear down inspection for prop strikes which the insurance company's pay for. I am having a hard time believing or understanding how a 42 year old engine gets put back together without turning it into a major overhaul even though not required. Plus the comment that the owner "scoped" the cam further adds question to the scope of the inspection - he should have been able to hold it in his hand with a proper inspection. I assume though you gave reviewed the logs and know what was really done. But stuff like that makes me wonder if you even want to fly that engine in its current state. Like Byron commented - if that is not run out I don't know what is. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 Paul, I think it is a situation called youthful optimism... If you keep an eye closed to the age of the OH... And, you keep an eye closed to the prop strike issue... It is possible that everything will work out for the better...? How many eyes doesn't it take, how many eyes do you have? Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hosshawk Posted July 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I think there is a world inside general aviation that operates engines like the one we're talking about all the time. I believe there are a lot of older IA's that would not have a problem flying behind this engine. Since over the years they have witnessed several examples of similar engines performing just fine. But I think there may be a safety stigma behind defending an engine like this. When It's been 42 years since overhaul, it has to be bad, is the consensus on this board. Correct me if I'm wrong. My point being that this engine keeps getting signed off by somebody! And it keeps putting along. Granted it could start making metal tomorrow. But so could anyone's engine. I guess what we're saying is, is that this one is more likely to make metal sooner. The big question is, is that founded in facts? Or just legends. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 Some older IA's may only dial the crank and let it fly on a prop strike. To be honest all that is required is to inspect the crank gear, dowl pin, and to change the bolt with new locking tab. To comply with the factories inspection guidelines, I don't believe you need to even split the case. I wouldn't touch it if some one wanted me to sign it off with out splitting the case. Espically after 42 years. -Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinerunner Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 I think "gear up inspection" might just mean checking the manual gears functioning. No mention of a prop strike in the original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hosshawk Posted July 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 I think "gear up inspection" might just mean checking the manual gears functioning. No mention of a prop strike in the original post. No it was an actual gear up. Not sure if it was a collapse or just forgotten. The aircraft has factory installed electric gear. The logbook had gear adjustment entries just prior to the gear up. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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