Stall Behavior

[markejackson02]

How clean is the stall break in a 201?  I had a 67 C model.  Stalling it, clean and dirty, resulted in a pretty apparent break which could be followed by a secondary stall if I pulled back too quickly.

 

With my 201, the break doesn't seem nearly as clean.  Seems more like a Cherokee stall where I end up mushing along in a 500 fpm descent.  I was able to get a sharp break but it involved slowing to the bottom of the arc and then a strong pull on the yoke to induce the stall.

 

Is this typical of the 201?

 

Thx

 

Mark

[M20F]

Did the C and 201 both have stall strips?

[Hank]

Did the C and 201 both have stall strips?

My 1970 C has stall strips.

P.S.--unaccelerated stalls are fairly mild, but more noticeable than in the 172 I trained in. Accelerated departure stalls during ccheckrides / training are immediately recovered BEFORE the break!

[aaronk25]

Not typical! My 201 will Buffett for about 2-3 seconds after stall and no matter how centered the ball if aft control is left at full back guaranteed to be upside down in a spin in another 2 sec

[markejackson02]

Did the C and 201 both have stall strips?

Yeah they both have stall strips.

[markejackson02]

Not typical! My 201 will Buffett for about 2-3 seconds after stall and no matter how centered the ball if aft control is left at full back guaranteed to be upside down in a spin in another 2 sec

One the one occasion I was able to get a sharp break, the stall was straight ahead and the nose went to down 15 degrees as soon as I let off the back pressure.  I would be more worried about the spin in a power on departure stall.

[AndyFromCB]

My two cents: don't stall non trainer/non aerobatic aircraft. What's the point? All that can happen is grief. My understanding is secondary stall and spin characteristics leave a lot to be desired in a Mooney. Never understood practicing full stalls past private pilot certificate. In real life, if you stall it, you're going to be more than likely dead, because it will either be IMC, base/final turn. No amount of recovery practice is going to help you there. 

[jetdriven]

The 201 has strong springs in the pitch control system. There is a definate change in pitch feel when pulling the yoke back that last 3" or so, it gets very stiff.  Overcome that in flight by pulling it back all the way to the mechanical stop, and the wing will fully stall. It's a definite nose down pitching moment due to the laminar flow wing.  Stall recovery is conventional.

[Alan Fox]

Did power on stall training in an E a few years ago..... I will NEVER do power on stalls in a Mooney EVER ... There is nothing conventional about recovering from an inverted spin...... Just my two cents.....Even cleaning the brown stain from my skivvies was "unconventional"

[jetdriven]

65% power works pretty good for power on stalls.

[AndyFromCB]

Inverted spin recovery is entirely conventional.  You just pull instead of push. 

 

Agreed, though, about power on stalls in the Mooney.  My CFI doesn't make me do them at all but when I practice I do them at less than full power.

 

And why practice them? If you have a power on stall on take off, you're dead. All that happens by practicing them is possibility of boring a hole in the ground. Nothing to learn here. Want to have some fun? Go rent a Super D.

[M20F]

I have rented Pitts and Great Lakes for this very reason. Never a Super Decathlon, though, although I hear that they are a hoot.

I admit that I really do have a hard time imagining a departure stall ever happening in my Mooney. The reason for this, though, is that my routine practice when taking off is to trim the nose down and to accelerate as soon as possible to 120 MPH. Cooling and visibility over the nose are both better and if the engine quits I won't have to push as hard or as quickly.

Take off, retract manual gear, it a bump IFR, have the gear handle pop out, try to retract at 120, lose track of attention because you are messing with the gear, think the horn is the gear horn because you are messing with gear and forgetting you have full throttle in. In my case recovery occurred prior to stall but it was close enough.

I would echo the advice on practicing stalls in a Mooney. Practicing slow flight and the edge of stalls so you get a feel for what to look for is more than sufficient in my book. They aren't very forgiving in a lot of cases and they don't spin for more than 1-2 rotations before going into a spiral. A spin is an acrobat maneuver which is fun, a spiral isn't.

[Hank]

And why practice them? If you have a power on stall on take off, you're dead. All that happens by practicing them is possibility of boring a hole in the ground. Nothing to learn here. Want to have some fun? Go rent a Super D.

I don't any more, but my CFII made me practice and the DPE made me demonstrate recovery on my Instrument checkride (in 2010). I'm done with stalls unless I go for my Commercial.

[markejackson02]

Did power on stall training in an E a few years ago..... I will NEVER do power on stalls in a Mooney EVER ... There is nothing conventional about recovering from an inverted spin...... Just my two cents.....Even cleaning the brown stain from my skivvies was "unconventional"

 

 

65% power works pretty good for power on stalls.

 

When I was learning in a 172 the instructor would have me do full power stalls which resulted in a 30 degree nose up stall.  Interesting to say the least and almost spun once.  In the mooney, I let is slow down and then add power until it is dirty, slow, and hanging on the prop.  It can then stall pretty easily without a lot of drama and simulates what is likely to happen in reality better than the 45 degree nose up full power accelerated stall.

[bradp]

New (2012) PTS for commercial includes he following:

VIII. Slow Flight and StallsNOTE: InaccordancewithFAApolicy,allstallsfortheCommercial Certificate/Rating will be taken to the “onset” (buffeting) stall condition.

So there doesn't seem much use in taking stall beyond the recognition phase and it would seem prudent not entering a fully developed stall unless performing specific spin training ... Which would be done in something that's not my Mooney. I've done a couple of biennials with nonspecific CFIs not necessarily familiar with the stall characteristics of Mooneys... I just make sure they understand that we will only be taking stalls to point of recognition.

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[Hank]

Especially and particularly power on /departure stalls. You think you are ready. Even if you are a CFI and have a spin endorsement. There's no being ready for that! Tighten your seatbelt!

You're right about that!! I was ready to recover while setting 22-23" or so for the accelerated stall recovery under the hood . . . I always recover the Mooney at buffet, but prefer to not get there. I did amaze one MAPA PPP CFII by how long I could fly and turn both directions with the stall horn buzzing away, and not because it's set too high. But it's not where I like to operate, other than during the flare.

[cliffy]

In a conversation I had with Bill Wheat last year he mentioned that he got into a 5 or 6 turn spin

once in a short body ( I think he said it went inverted)and it was exciting enough that he wished to

not ever replay that story again.

Now against that there is a youtube on the Piperel(sp) showing a 10 turn spin with all 4 seats occupied

and almost full fuel. Quite a good cockpit view.

[Marauder]

In a conversation I had with Bill Wheat last year he mentioned that he got into a 5 or 6 turn spin

once in a short body ( I think he said it went inverted)and it was exciting enough that he wished to

not ever replay that story again.

Now against that there is a youtube on the Piperel(sp) showing a 10 turn spin with all 4 seats occupied

and almost full fuel. Quite a good cockpit view.

I have seen that video. Pretty impressive. Bill Wheat does have some interesting test flight stories.

I've learned to respect the beast within. During my checkout for complex airplanes, I flew with a young instructor in a Mooney. We were doing stalls at really low altitudes and the beast came out. Nothing like recovering at the tree line to leave you with a lasting "Ain't gonna do that again!!"

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[Ftlausa]

I just finished my IFR training in my J, and the CFII required all slow flight to be with stall horn on, and required all stalls to be full break.  I was concerned at first on the full breaks (after having read similar threads on this board about stall habits of Mooneys), but after a while it became routine.  Proper technique resulted in quick recovery and the  wing drop was not as bad as I expected.  I was not about to let a spin develop, however, at least not intentionally.  Spins are way fun to do, but I limit those to aerobatic aircraft like a Pitts or Zlin.   

[Guitarmaster]

Especially and particularly power on /departure stalls in the Mooney. You think you are ready. Even if you are a CFI and have a spin endorsement. There's no being ready for that! Tighten your seatbelt! (Not endorsing practicing full power on stalls in a Mooney)

Yep! Long ago as a young CFI, I did a departure stall in a C. Full power demonstration for the new owner. Hung on the prop for a bit then.... A couple burbles then BAM! Upside down and spinning in a FLASH! However, immediate forward pressure to reduce AOA effected recovery instantly. Nearly passed redline in the resulting dive.

If you let a departure stall get to that point on takeoff, you're dead, but, it's pretty dramatic nose up and reasonable easy to recognize long before the break.

It's a high performance airplane, not a trainer. IMHO it should be treated as such.

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