Barry Schiff article

[flyboy0681]

While flying home from Israel earlier this week I opened up my AOPA Magazine and read an article by Barry Schiff where he discussed the sad state of affairs of general aviation in Israel. As I had witnessed while over there, the article was precise in every way.

 

Prior to my trip there my friend and CFI got me in contact with a friend of his that owns a Skylane and keeps it at an airport in Tel Aviv, Sde Dov. We made arrangements to go flying and a week before the scheduled trip he informed me that he was evicted from his tie down because the airport is being closed and torn down to make way for housing. As a result he had to relocate his plane to Beersheba, which is about 90 miles away. He was a good sport and drove down to get his plane and flew back to Sde Dov to pick my wife and myself up (the airport is still open for operations).

 

When we arrived at the airport my wife and I had to pass through three security checks and show our passport four times, with lots of questions in between. We finally took to the skies and had to follow what they call CVFR (controlled VFR) routes. We flew these routes up and down the coast, inland to the Negev desert and then on the way back we passed within 10 miles of the Gaza Strip. In all we put 2.1 hours on the HOBBS.

 

It was a fascinating trip carried out at 1,500 feet all the way. We spoke a lot during the flight (in between constant radio calls - all in Hebrew) and he said that within a few short years GA will be a thing of the past in the country.

 

 

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/June/Pilot/proficient-pilot

 

 

Here is a picture of Sde Dov from the air. Notice the tower at the approach end of the runway.

[AndyFromCB]

Well,

 

To be fair, the entire country is the size of my back yard and housing is a major issue there…I just got back from wasting some time on the beaches there about a month or so ago...

[flyboy0681]

Well,

 

To be fair, the entire country is the size of my back yard and housing is a major issue there…I just got back from wasting some time on the beaches there about a month or so ago...

 

Not exactly, as you saw for yourself the country is the same size as New Jersey. While there is a shortage of housing, all I saw from the air was wide-open spaces. The allure of that particular site is that it's nestled right up against the Mediterranean, so budget housing it is not going to be.

[Danb]

The water looks beautiful..the sky looks full of smog?

[flyboy0681]

The water looks beautiful..the sky looks full of smog?

 

 

Very interesting you said that. That morning (and each morning we were there) we had low level broken clouds at 2,000 feet. The pilot said that before ten years ago the skies were clear every day and that there wasn't any smog in the area. Of course the smog is now probably the result of cars that weren't on the road back then. But the owner is a physicist and squarely places the cause on climate change. 

[AndyFromCB]

Not exactly, as you saw for yourself the country is the same size as New Jersey. While there is a shortage of housing, all I saw from the air was wide-open spaces. The allure of that particular site is that it's nestled right up against the Mediterranean, so budget housing it is not going to be.

 

Sorry, was being sarcastic. Yes, the airport will probably be replaced by multi million dollar condos…No question about it.

[flyboy0681]

Yes, the airport will probably be replaced by multi million dollar condos…No question about it.

 

Damned 1%'rs

[fantom]

W.....he said that within a few short years GA will be a thing of the past in the country.

 

 

 

 By then Iran will have nukes, and both GA and climate change will be the least of his worries. 

[PTK]

My question is who is going to use them first, Iran or Israel.

[bonal]

^{Israel will do what it has to too survive just like any of us.  When Iran gets close enough they will launch a  conventional assault to re set the time table back again same as before.}

[flyboy0681]

^{Israel will do what it has to too survive just like any of us.  When Iran gets close enough they will launch a  conventional assault to re set the time table back again same as before.}

 

Even though they are a Islamic theocracy, I don't think they are suicidal and as a result don't believe there will be any conflict. 

 

Maybe it's just the optimist in me.

[PTK]

Even though they are a Islamic theocracy, I don't think they are suicidal and as a result don't believe there will be any conflict.

Maybe it's just the optimist in me.

The concept of mutually assured destruction is not a deterent to them. On the contrary it's an inducement.

And to complicate matters, the cat is out of the bag. They have ICBM's and some say they already have nuclear weapons.

At this point the worst thing we can do is back them into a corner.

[aviatoreb]

My neighbor two houses down the block from me - a physics professor by the way - his brother lives in Isreal and his brother was a pilot until recently and he owned his own airplane.  He quite officially just 2 or 3 years ago - my neighbor reports it just became too much of a nuisance and there are fewer and fewer places to go, so he sold his plane and quite.

[flyboy0681]

My neighbor two houses down the block from me - a physics professor by the way - his brother lives in Isreal and his brother was a pilot until recently and he owned his own airplane.  He quite officially just 2 or 3 years ago - my neighbor reports it just became too much of a nuisance and there are fewer and fewer places to go, so he sold his plane and quite.

 

90% of the planes that I saw on the ramp where Cessna's, so I guess there will be some cheap planes coming on the market in the next few years. 

[Guest]

My question is who is going to use them first, Iran or Israel.

I think we should give some nukes to the Palestinians as well. It's hard to have a fair fight with one arm amputated and the other has a slingshot and your opponent has tanks and modern fighters.

Clarence

[flyboy0681]

I think we should give some nukes to the Palestinians as well. It's hard to have a fair fight with one arm amputated and the other has a slingshot and your opponent has tanks and modern fighters.

Clarence

 

Until the time that you make a trip there you can't understand the security issues that Israel has to deal with. Security for the average citizen is so tight that American's would never tolerate it. How would you like to pass through security each time you went to a department store or supermarket? And for some reason whenever I gassed up the car I was required to give the license plate number when I paid.

 

This past trip had opened my eyes very wide.

[flyboy0681]

Spoken like a typical American FOX news watcher. Can you even find them on the map, Peter? Ever had the pleasure of visiting Tehran?

 

Hate to break it to you, the mullahs like their multi million apartments, their benzes, rolls royces, their hookers and their blow as much as any other despots as in they too prefer their virgins delivered in this lifetime instead of promises in next one. They have no desire for an open war with Israel or for that matter any else. It's just politics and rhetoric.

 

Agreed.

 

Here's a story from 2009 where an Iranian cleric was caught with a prostitute. I guess under all of that garb they are still men.

 

To quote from Dr. Strangelove, where the Russian Ambassador was covering for the Premier, who was indisposed at the moment, "Our Premier is a man of our people, but he is also... a man".

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/01/09/irans-hottest-porn-video.html

[Guest]

Until the time that you make a trip there you can't understand the security issues that Israel has to deal with. Security for the average citizen is so tight that American's would never tolerate it. How would you like to pass through security each time you went to a department store or supermarket? And for some reason whenever I gassed up the car I was required to give the license plate number when I paid.

 

This past trip had opened my eyes very wide.

If I'm not mistaken it used to be called Palistine before it was assimilated to become Israel.

Clarence

[Hank]

If I'm not mistaken it used to be called Palistine before it was assimilated to become Israel.

Clarence

But before that, for a couple of thousand years (until they pissed off the Romans one time too many), it was known as Israel to the world.

[flyboy0681]

If I'm not mistaken it used to be called Palistine before it was assimilated to become Israel.

Clarence

 

You're view of history is exactly why Israelis are now shitting a brick and feel that North America is starting to fail them.

 

Until 1964 there were no people called "Palestinians", they were mostly a population made up of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians who lived in the area and were simply referred to as Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians living in the area. Interestingly, during the British Mandate Jews living in Palestine were called Palestinians (ain't that a hoot?). Lastly, there was never a nation called Palestine. You are free to research that fact for yourself.

 

The Jews were there for centuries and it's been very well documented. The Roman's had something to do with them leaving, but that's a story for another day.

 

Depending on whose side of the story you believe, in 1948 the Arab people who were living in the territory called Palestine were given the option to stay and become Israeli citizens, but their Arab leaders told them to leave as a sign of protest as they will be back another time with a vengeance. Others thought that if they left they could simply return at will.Those Arabs who stayed went on to became Israeli citizens and are now quite well off and successful. They consider themselves Israelis, carry Israeli passports, vote in elections and enjoy full rights as citizens. Had the Arab leaders not told their people to up and leave as a sign of protest, they too would all be citizens now instead of outcasts walled into a few square miles wishing they had not listened to their leaders all those years ago. The Palestinian version of the story goes that they were forced out, but from my readings, there is no evidence of that.

 

What I love most about the Palestinian plight is that the surrounding countries (Egypt, Syria and Jordan) talk a good game about their brethren, but they do absolutely nothing to help them. In fact, during the 1980's these countries expelled Palestinian refugees that made their way there. In other words, to these Arab countries, Palestinian's are the bottom of the barrel and they want no part of them.

 

One thing struck me as I flew across the country, the land is incredibly green. Israel not only produces enough food to feed themselves, but they export it as well. I don't think any modern Arab country has been able to make the desert as green. Had the land stayed in Arab hands, I'd be willing to bet the desert would have remained a desert and the people living there would be starving.

 

Thank you for your time.

[Tom]

What I love most about the Palestinian plight is that the surrounding countries (Egypt, Syria and Jordan) talk a good game about their brethren, but they do absolutely nothing to help them. In fact, during the 1980's these countries expelled Palestinian refugees that made their way there. In other words, to these Arab countries, Palestinian's are the bottom of the barrel and they want no part of them.

wishing they had not listened to their leaders all those years ago. The Palestinian version of the story goes that they were forced out, but from my readings, there is no evidence of that.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how a culture so rich and gifted with intellectualism across the spectrum of the human existence can be so abjectly inhumane and unintellectual on specifically this subject. 

 

It is completely inane to argue "nothing happened here...in fact, blame the neighbors, even the neighbors don't want to deal with the consequences of what happened here...but nothing happened here...yeah...the neighbors are the ones who denigrate what happened here...but nothing happened here."

 

I wish Freud was still around to clarify whether or not the members of this culture who make statements like this actually believe this narrative or if the narrative is just acted out as part of a conflict neurosis.  I suspect that his hypothesis wouldn't be well received and that he'd be "Chomskyised" at the border trying to go in to further investigate the question. 

[carqwik]

Tom - Flyboy0681's facts are generally correct. 

[Guest]

I wonder just how well Israel would be doing without the untold billions of U.S. dollars given to them over the decades since 1948?

What Arab country would be willing to speak loud and clear about the plight of the people (of what ever name you call them in what ever name you want to give the land) and risk the ire of America and risk the economic handouts from America? (Cuba is an example of what pissing off America can do for your county) Certainly they would never consider battle with Israel, it's been proven that Israel with enough American made military equipment can defeat most opponents.

Clarence

[flyboy0681]

It never ceases to amaze me how a culture so rich and gifted with intellectualism across the spectrum of the human existence can be so abjectly inhumane and unintellectual on specifically this subject. 

 

It is completely inane to argue "nothing happened here...in fact, blame the neighbors, even the neighbors don't want to deal with the consequences of what happened here...but nothing happened here...yeah...the neighbors are the ones who denigrate what happened here...but nothing happened here."

 

I wish Freud was still around to clarify whether or not the members of this culture who make statements like this actually believe this narrative or if the narrative is just acted out as part of a conflict neurosis.  I suspect that his hypothesis wouldn't be well received and that he'd be "Chomskyised" at the border trying to go in to further investigate the question. 

 

I'd be interested in hearing your version of the history. I'm always open minded and may just learn something.

[flyboy0681]

I wonder just how well Israel would be doing without the untold billions of U.S. dollars given to them over the decades since 1948?

What Arab country would be willing to speak loud and clear about the plight of the people (of what ever name you call them in what ever name you want to give the land) and risk the ire of America and risk the economic handouts from America? (Cuba is an example of what pissing off America can do for your county) Certainly they would never consider battle with Israel, it's been proven that Israel with enough American made military equipment can defeat most opponents.

Clarence

 

So what you are saying is that some Arab countries which we give aid to don't speak their mind because they are afraid we'd cutoff the spigot? Are you serious? The US gives money to dozens of countries that shout "Death To America" yet we continue to fill their pockets. Even hear of Pakistan, Syria, Egypt or Somalia? And for some reason, Iran is on the list. Search Google for "List of countries foreign aid" to get the complete lowdown, which numbers over 100. Of course a lot of these funds are spent on humanitarian reasons.

 

While there can certainly be no denial that the US has supported Israel financially over the decades, call me naive but a lot of that has come back with dividends. Israel is one of the top technology centers on the planet and has invented and developed a lot of consumer and medical products that are in wide use today (anybody use WAZE today on their iPhone to get around traffic?). Then there is the military spending which resulted in billions spent on American equipment which has kept American's gainfully employed for decades.