Bob Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 Well it has been a very long road the last few months. I though I was on the "home stretch", but guess not. Had an annual with a list of repairs, top overhaul with MT prop installation a couple weeks ago. Had several flight since without any issues, noises or problems. Then... Saturday, during startup, got a kickback and starter won't turn engine. Ended up leaving plane in Cleveland (KCGF) and renting a car to drive 7 hrs home. I hope the mechanic can remove the starter adapter tomorrow and diagnose the failure so we can know if it can be repaired or requires a full overhaul. During research I have found a couple pieces of information: Some say the light weight MT causes problems. I am having a hard time believing this since the MT is only 9 lb. lighter than a factory 2 blade McCauley. Their is a new and old style starter adapter. Two different groups that favor one over the other. Light weight starters take out adapters. I have a stock TCM starter Timing and magneto impulse coupler could cause kickback and damage. Starter issues can cause starter adapter damage. I have several issues and key problems = $$$$ ( I don't have much left after the recent 30K in repairs) 1) I am in a rental car with a daily cost. 2) The plane is broke/stuck quite a distance away. 3) Should I have the starter adapter repaired or replaced with a reman unit? I will know more after removal and inspection. Parts sources are appreciated. 4) Should I do a "quick" repair, like a used part or replace broken parts only to start it and get the plane home to fix proper for long term. I only need one start? 5) What is the cause of the kickback? something caused the kickback, causing the adapter damage. I could use any help that anyone has to offer. Thanks! Quote
triple8s Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 Ok, I dont have a TSIO 360 I run the TCM 550 but both use a starter adapter and mine went out over a year ago but I bought an over haued unit from Niagra and was very happy with the speed of the shipping. They make every effort to get you the parts ASAP and they give special instructions about installations and also about starters that are to be used. I was VERY pleased with them. http://niagaraairparts.com Good luck Quote
Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 We've used Niagara, who tend to be more expensive and lately have been using G & N in Griffith Indiana who are quite reasonable. G & N offered fast turn around of your own part. Clarence Quote
jackn Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 Most of the info I got was from Niagra Airparts, so give them a call they're very helpful. There are two types of starter adapters, old & new style. Sounds like you broke the spring, therefore you probably have the old style. Good news, you may have to just replace the spring. Niagra told me some of the Canadian bush pilots carry spare spring with them and can change them themselves. The impulse couplings on slicks open 30 deg retarded on starting, I'm not sure if you have Bendix. Check your timing! The MT prop could cause this IF timing set too far advanced and momentum of the prop is not stong enough. Very unlikely any metal got into the rest of the engine. Quote
markfoster7700 Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 Bob, I am working in Milwaukee and Chicago this week, but after this week I am open. I live in Michigan, but both Elmhurst, Illinois and Cleveland are not very far from me. If you need a shuttle service to/from your plane, let me know. I would be happy to give you a ride. Quote
Bob Posted June 8, 2015 Author Report Posted June 8, 2015 Thanks for all that helped so far. And thanks Mark for the generous offer for a ride. I think the best thing is to get the adapter out today and shipped out for overhaul. I will overhaul adapter and also replace starter. I have a Iskra starter with 15 yrs on it. Any feedback on Sky Tec starters? After I get it home I will get into the kickback problem. Will looking into impulse couplers, mag timing and other possible causes. Quote
Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Report Posted June 8, 2015 Thanks for all that helped so far. And thanks Mark for the generous offer for a ride. I think the best thing is to get the adapter out today and shipped out for overhaul. I will overhaul adapter and also replace starter. I have a Iskra starter with 15 yrs on it. Any feedback on Sky Tec starters? After I get it home I will get into the kickback problem. Will looking into impulse couplers, mag timing and other possible causes. Forget the Iskra and most light weights, buy a TCM energizer for long and reliable starting. Clarence Quote
triple8s Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Forget the Iskra and most light weights, buy a TCM energizer for long and reliable starting. Clarence I had some slipping last year and read a horror story about a fellow whos engine and prop got trashed so I ended up buying a rebuilt unit from Niagra and they recommedned an energizer or a prestolite. The main thing according to them was a direct drive unit so the starter would spin back freely when the key was released. Anything over 5 inch/lb would cause the starter adapter to not fully release, thereby gaulding the adapter clutch and causing failure and engine and prop contamination. An aquaintence with a Corvalis had the same problem I began to have and his mechanic said the skytec was ok to use however it is also a planetary drive like the Iskra, I guess the only sure fire way to tell if a starter is ok is if it will turn backwards after the key is released. I would rather gain a few pounds and have durability, thats just my opinion. If anyone wants to read for theirselves its on CSO Beech. Quote
philiplane Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Thanks for all that helped so far. And thanks Mark for the generous offer for a ride. I think the best thing is to get the adapter out today and shipped out for overhaul. I will overhaul adapter and also replace starter. I have a Iskra starter with 15 yrs on it. Any feedback on Sky Tec starters? After I get it home I will get into the kickback problem. Will looking into impulse couplers, mag timing and other possible causes. The Iskra starter is a known troublemaker for the starter adapter. There are service bulletins out to remove them and replace with the Skytec CS3T or CS5T starters that eliminate the drag on the adapter spring and shaft. Using an old style starter is also acceptable but they are quite heavy. Quote
Bob Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Posted June 9, 2015 Again many opinions on starters. One thing everyone agrees on is get rid of the Iskra! I called the guy that does my mags, when he heard the word Iskra, he started talking rough and with anger in his voice. He said to go with Prestolite. I did call sky-tec and talked to a tec rather than a sales person. He said the CS3T has a long history of being strong with no issues on the TSIO360, but would not recommend it on larger Continentals. Looks like I now have a clear direction. I am having Poplar Grove overhaul my adapter. They are known for engines and just did my Top Overhaul. The damaged part should be delivered to them today, all parts are in stock to overhaul and they are doing a 1.5 day turn around for me. I trust their machining skills and I keep my own part, not an exchange. If anything is in question, I can drive over and look at the problem. They also recomended the Sky-Tec, so I will go it to stay with their recommendation. Sounds like the best solution this time. Thanks again for all the info. It has helped me greatly! Quote
GeorgePerry Posted June 15, 2015 Report Posted June 15, 2015 Bob My plane came out of maint today for an unrelated issue. I went to do a test run and I had the same problem. Starter would start to turn over but the prop didn't spin and the starter was making the really sad sounding buzzing noise. Both batteries are new showing a full 24 volt charge. I suspect the maint shop overheated the starter and burned it up, but of course there's no way to prove that. So I'm stuck with getting it fixed. Luckily the plane is at my home field. Ordered a Skytec C24ST3. I spoke with Skytec and thats the starter they recommend for big bore continentals (IO550) on both the eagle and ovation. Quote
kmyfm20s Posted June 16, 2015 Report Posted June 16, 2015 Bob My plane came out of maint today for an unrelated issue. I went to do a test run and I had the same problem. Starter would start to turn over but the prop didn't spin and the starter was making the really sad sounding buzzing noise. Both batteries are new showing a full 24 volt charge. I suspect the maint shop overheated the starter and burned it up, but of course there's no way to prove that. So I'm stuck with getting it fixed. Luckily the plane is at my home field. Ordered a Skytec C24ST3. I spoke with Skytec and thats the starter they recommend for big bore continentals (IO550) on both the eagle and ovation.skytec io550.jpg Your not having very good luck lately! Is there any weight saving for the big bore engine starters like the Lycomings get? Quote
GeorgePerry Posted June 16, 2015 Report Posted June 16, 2015 Yep...a skytec shed's 7 pounds from the nose which is really good since long bodies tend to be nose heavy. There's light at the end of the tunnel, I know it! I just hope its not a train 1 Quote
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Report Posted June 16, 2015 Hopefully an LED light, saving someone's alternator! Clarence Quote
carusoam Posted June 17, 2015 Report Posted June 17, 2015 7#s...? Now I'm interested to see your experience. No rush, my starter is not that old... A few ways to make you LB Mooney lose weight up front... - light weight starter. - light weight prop. See Composite details... - light weight engine. (N) vs. (G) - Garminize. Remoting some electronics back to the shelf... Sounds like it may be possible to gain 50 UL pounds by going light up front and losing similar weight in Charley weights in the back... Best regards, -a- Quote
kmyfm20s Posted June 17, 2015 Report Posted June 17, 2015 7#s...? Now I'm interested to see your experience. No rush, my starter is not that old... A few ways to make you LB Mooney lose weight up front... - light weight starter. - light weight prop. See Composite details... - light weight engine. (N) vs. (G) - Garminize. Remoting some electronics back to the shelf... Sounds like it may be possible to gain 50 UL pounds by going light up front and losing similar weight in Charley weights in the back... Best regards, -a- The specs I've seen for the N vs. G had them at the exact same weight. 450.3 lbs. Did your installed reduce weight? Quote
carusoam Posted June 17, 2015 Report Posted June 17, 2015 That weight came from my hand written notes while taking on the decision. Now I've added extended memory to the discussion... One of the differences between g & n is the shape of the cylinders that require some changes to the sheet metal shrouding around them... The cooling fins are a modernized version. The RPM limit is the 2700 vs. 2500 base line... If it's only two pounds per cylinder it would be 12 pounds on the nose. The TopProp comes in three different weights. Thick blades, thin blades and composite. I haven't garminized anything permanent yet. I should have left a statement similar to check your facts prior to ... For anyone doing a FWF project, the list gives some significant opportunity to better understand the WnB flexibility of the LB. The N was a few dollars less than the G as well... Generally I'm surprised with how many pounds George is seeing in just the starter motor. I didn't go with the composite blades based on the visual experience watching the same set-up in the plastic planes...watching the shut-down on a flywheel-less engine is tough to do as an engineer. What Bob, the OP, described above, stems from the same challenge. No flywheel momentum, turned into kick back and broken parts... Adding a lighter starter might take additional review before making that decision... Which parts got lighter..? Going without the flywheel really requires knowing a smooth starting procedure... I went with the thin aluminum blades... Best regards, -a- Large weight range, not enough specifics, according to their website. I would find it unlikely that they are the same weight to within 0.1# http://www.continentalmotors.aero/Engine_Details/ Quote
GeorgePerry Posted June 17, 2015 Report Posted June 17, 2015 I'll put them both on a scale to get an exact number. This was an estimate based on my discussions with product support. It seemed a bit optimistic. Quote
GeorgePerry Posted June 17, 2015 Report Posted June 17, 2015 Starter was pulled today and checked ok...that's the good news. Starter adapter is the problem. ARRRGGGG! a starter adaptor is way more expensive than a starter. Quote
jetdriven Posted June 17, 2015 Report Posted June 17, 2015 Check Beech talk for the best starter adapter. Some of the rebuilt ones fail in 100 hrs. That windup spring and shaft need to be good, and not Kelly style thrown together with used parts. Quote
GeorgePerry Posted June 18, 2015 Report Posted June 18, 2015 http://niagaraairparts.com I was speaking w/ a buddy of mine who is a Dir of Sales at Cirrus, so he has lots of experience with IO550 engines. He raved about how good Niagara is. Said as good or better than new from continental. I'm gonna give them a call tomorrow and order one. On a separate note, my local shop quoted me $3800 for a new continental starter adapter. That seemed high so I called the factory directly. They told me $3355 was their list price and what they'd sell me one for. Does $450 mark up on one part seem excessive to anyone other than me? I know the MRO shop has to make a profit but that much for making a phone call just doesn't seem reasonable. Am I out to lunch? Quote
Bob Posted June 18, 2015 Author Report Posted June 18, 2015 GeorgePerry, Lets chat tonight. Just went thru this. It could be complicated or EZ. I will share my research and sources. I'll send you my # in a PM. Quote
Marauder Posted June 18, 2015 Report Posted June 18, 2015 I was speaking w/ a buddy of mine who is a Dir of Sales at Cirrus, so he has lots of experience with IO550 engines. He raved about how good Niagara is. Said as good or better than new from continental. I'm gonna give them a call tomorrow and order one. On a separate note, my local shop quoted me $3800 for a new continental starter adapter. That seemed high so I called the factory directly. They told me $3355 was their list price and what they'd sell me one for. Does $450 mark up on one part seem excessive to anyone other than me? I know the MRO shop has to make a profit but that much for making a phone call just doesn't seem reasonable. Am I out to lunch? George -- the list price a company shows is rarely what a distribution partner pays for it. The actual range depends on a few factors, but suffice to say, it will be lower than list. I would not pay above list and I would see if Continental would cut you a discount. Doesn't hurt to ask. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
GeorgePerry Posted June 18, 2015 Report Posted June 18, 2015 Continental was pretty reasonable - its my MRO (Landmark) that's selling to me for 500 over list. Its a long story, but suffice to say I'm not happy with them...but my plane is apart, AOG, and not worth the hassle of dealing with them anymore. I just want it fixed. I'll pay their ridiculous sum and take my business elsewhere in the future Quote
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