Final Questions

[IndyTim]

Definitely an option for us (we don't have kids yet either).

Two more questions.

Anyone know how much speed brakes are installed?

Is having a GAMI fuel injector as good as having an intercooler?

Are you looking at a turbo bird?

GAMIs and intercoolers are apples and oranges - each serves a different purpose. The GAMIs can help balance and optimize fuel delivery across each cylinder, resulting in smoother operation, arguably better efficiency and maybe performance. GAMIs may help you achieve better lean-of-peak (LOP) operation.

The intercooler, on a turbocharged engine, stands between the turbo and intake, and cools the compressed air (which has been warmed by the act of being compressed), prior to entering the intake manifold. The result is increased power since the cooler air is more dense.

Tough question, which is better. I assume you're looking at a 231, and I guess on one of those I would choose the intercooler.

[DonMuncy]

In my opinion, neither have any significant impact on the exhaust system. You should do a GAMI spread check (google GAMI) to see if you even need GAMI injectors. If you need them, the engine may run smoother, and likely will let you run LOP.

As noted earlier, GAMIs and intercoolers can't even be discussed in the same paragraph. Both good, but not one better than the other.

[MB65E]

Turbos can be hard on Exhaust systems. Hot EGTs can be contributed to blocked injectors. Gamis are nice but I'd rather have an intercooler. Both would help reduce the heat of the engine. As the air is compressed by the turbo, heat builds. The Intercoolers cool the air one more time before it is forced into the engine. This lowers the overall operating temps making the turbo and engine more efficient at higher powersettings. So the lower temps you have over time will save certain components of the engine.

Make sense?

-Matt

[StinkBug]

If you do not hangar, it is a matter of time before hail comes through.  The bulk of the plane requires some real hail to do damage, but the ailerons are very thin and require next to nothing.

 

 

 

This is more of a regional concern. I know there are parts of the country where hail is common, but in southern CA it's so rare that I can only remember seeing it a handful of times in the 25 years I've lived here, and none of those times was it big enough to damage anything. There are a lot of planes kept on tie downs here, and I've never even seen what hail damage looks like. Sun bleached paint and windows, yes. Hail, no. 

[IndyTim]

Isn't there something about one or both helping the exhaust system? I seem to recall an article saying that is high wear in the 231.

Are they mutually exclusive or would both be optimal?

No, they are not mutually exclusive. I would guess that many, if not most, 231s have been upgraded with both GAMIs and intercooler at this point.

If you are looking at a 231, in addition to the intercooler, you also want the Merlyn automatic wastegate. Any plane can be so equipped after purchase, with enough money, but I would be a little more confident in a plane that had wastegate/intercooler already, since both work to better manage engine heat. Equally importantly, the wastegate will help prevent overboost and improve turbo performance overall. Not to say that a 231 cannot be operated well without them, but it does require good, and consistent engine management to avoid overboost and over-temp conditions.

For me, the wastegate would be the most important to have, of the three options under discussion.

But that assumes the plane is in sound condition overall, especially engine and landing gear but that includes everything else!

There is a lot going on, from a workload perspective, when you are climbing out and ATC is talking at you and you've got weather around.... etc etc. Especially in a turbo, It can be easy to miss staying on top of your manifold pressure and engine heat. This can lead to very expensive repairs before too long. Both wastegate and intercooler will give you a little more margin of protection in those scenarios.

[DonMuncy]

Quote: For me, the wastegate would be the most important to have, of the three options under discussion.

At one time, I would have agreed, as I assumed with a Merlyn, you could push the throttle forward and the wastegate would take care of it. Lately I have read that this is not the case. That you still have to take care to not overboost. If this is true (and I have no personal knowledge), my position is that "if I have to watch it some, I would just as soon watch it closer and save the $3000 plus.

I have had my 231 for 15 years and it is not too much of a problem to watch the MP.

I would be glad to be enlightened by folks who have the automatic wastegate.

[dtoelke]

The Merlyn wastegate does NOT help with overboost.  This is probably the most commonly misunderstood aspect of the 231, but I can't get mad at people for spreading this as I was once in the same boat.  The confusion really stems from poor naming convention.  Instead of 'automatic' it should be 'semi-automatic'.  It's based on oil pressure (not MP) so while it doesn't stop you from overboosting it prevents bootstrapping at altitude (holds MP steady).  Also, since it's able to vary the wastegate opening it puts lets stress on the turbo at lower altitudes (large opening, diverting more exhaust gases/heat around the turbo) while at the same time increasing the critical altitude (small/no opening).  Why they never designed an absolute pressure controller for the 231 is beyond me.  I was under the same impression as Don when I had mine installed immediately after buying the plane.  Frankly I don't know if I would have spent the money had I known beforehand (live and learn), but I do enjoy the benefits the system brings.  The intercooler is much more essential in my opinion (especially on the West Coast) as are GAMI injectors if needed (take a spread first though, since some engines just worked out well from the factory).  The intercooler is also much harder and more expensive to add than either the GAMI's or Merlyn, so I'd be much more concerned about finding a plane that already has a intercooler installed.

 

I see you also mentioned speed brakes.  Other than the engine monitor, these are the most useful pieces of equipment on my plane.  The good news is speed brakes are one of those upgrades that retain their value so if you have to install them you will make most of your money back.  Conversely, if the plane you are looking at does not have speed brakes the price should reflect it.

[carusoam]

5 amus..? for the hardware...

https://preciseflight.com/general-aviation/shop/speedbrakes/products/speedbrakes-mooney/

Best regards,

-a-

[IndyTim]

Don and dtoelke, thanks for the corrections re: Merlyn.

[Oldguy]

I would HIGHLY recommend having an escrow company or the like pull the FAA records for your plane, especially if there are any logs missing.

 

When I bought my previous Cezzna, I went with the salesman's word (yes, young and stupid) and bought it missing the first set of logs. After pulling a full accounting of its records from the FAA when I went to sell it, it seems it had been de-registered since it was COMPLETELY destroyed two years after being built.   Not sure if you can say I sold it or gave it away after finding that out.

 

With my Mooney, I got all of the logs as well as the FAA information before I purchased it and can name all of the owners back to the point it came out of Kerrville, some of whom are here on Mooneyspace. Point being, I am certain of the plane I bought this time and its condition from its manufacture date to the trip back from New Orleans last weekend.

 

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

John

[Marauder]

I checked this: http://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/AircraftDetailPage#SUBMIT and it had some sketchy stuff for the missing logs, but nothing too terrible. This is in the records: Certificate Terminated and also has a deregistered status from a few years back.

Keep in mind that a plane can have a N number that was used previously. So the history you are seeing may be from another plane and most likely not a Mooney.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Oldguy]

Keep in mind that a plane can have a N number that was used previously. So the history you are seeing may be from another plane and most likely not a Mooney.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Marauder is correct, but the web site you referenced shows nothing on my C172 but here is what the search by the escrow company turned up.

 

I just don't want anyone to make my mistake when they can avoid it.

 

John

[gsxrpilot]

I'll agree with John that you need to do a very thorough search for records.  But the search isn't always bad on planes with missing logs.  Mine is a 1964 but doesn't have any logs prior to 1982.  I have the FAA records and a clean registration record going back to Kerrville.  It's been landed gear up three times over it's life... but a couple of owners back is a race car driver with money and a love for fast airplanes. The result is my beautiful C with carrying every speed mod ever STC'd for it. And a panel that would look good in a K. I'm very happy to own and have flown 140 hours without issue.  Do the search, but remain optimistic.

 

Just my $0.02

[midlifeflyer]

I would HIGHLY recommend having an escrow company or the like pull the FAA records for your plane, especially if there are any logs missing.

 

...and it is not just a damage issue. I've seen long paid-off liens that were never discharged. That can be a real PITA especially if the lender has gone out of business.

[N9405V]

Tie it down a fly it a lot. 40 minutes will get real old, real fast especially if there is traffic involved. Get a good covers, inlet plugs, and a corrosion treatment (Bruce's Custom Covers), and enjoy your plane. Get in the list for a hangar.

[Bob - S50]

...and it is not just a damage issue. I've seen long paid-off liens that were never discharged. That can be a real PITA especially if the lender has gone out of business.

We had that with our Mooney.  It still had a lien from the original purchase that had never been cleared.  The bank had changed names.  Had to find out the new name and contact them.  Asked for a lien release and they sent one but with the wrong names on it.  Had them correct that and send another one.  Took about a week to get it all straightened out.

 

Bob

[FlyDave]

If you need an escrow company I recommend AeroTitle. I just used them on another plane and Lisa and team were EXCELLENT to work with and the least cost escrow company I could find:

 

Lisa Sedlacek

AeroTitle

Escrow Executive  

3426 S. Lakeside Drive

Oklahoma City, OK 73179
Toll Free: (866) 738-8330

Phone: 405-763-5980 
Fax: 405-763-5999
Email: Lisa@AEROtitle.com

Website: www.AEROtitle.com

[midlifeflyer]

We had that with our Mooney.  It still had a lien from the original purchase that had never been cleared.  The bank had changed names.  Had to find out the new name and contact them.  Asked for a lien release and they sent one but with the wrong names on it.  Had them correct that and send another one.  Took about a week to get it all straightened out.

 

Bob

Ah. An easy one   They can be much more of  a headache than that.