StinkBug Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 The whole discussion of lawyers is completely off topic here anyways. The problem is not that the seller is a lawyer, it's that he's a douche bag lawyer. The lawyer part simply makes it easier for him to be a douche because he can write up fancy contracts full of legalese. A-holes are everywhere, and I've dealt with plenty in much less "professional" professions than the law. This guy is looking for input and advise on his airplane buying experience, lets try to do him a solid and stick with that. 1 Quote
kmyfm20s Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 That didn't take long for the Race card to come out. How about Megyn Kelly as a cliche buster! Hot, blond, successful, and a Lawyer! 1 Quote
larryb Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 Thunder669: Have you seen the plane in person? I read most of the thread, and don't see where you actually made the trip. When looking for my plane I looked at quite a number. Many looked good in the pics but not so much in person. In my search, I had one deal that fell through after the PPI. From that I learned that I can do a lot of PPI myself, and weed out the bad planes before paying a mechanic anything. I personally would not agree to purchase a plane without inspecting it in person, meeting the seller in person, and having a test flight. Inspections you can do yourself: Check the oil, clean or dirty? Full? Check the tires, cracked? tread? Inflated? Check the spark plugs. Worn? Fouled? Oily? Pull a few inspection panels and check for corrosion inside. Check the landing gear donuts. Check under cowl. Oil leaks? Anything loose? Anything look strange? Read every page of the logs. Does the plane fly consistently? Any times it's out of annual? Who does the annual? Maintenance between annuals? BTW, I bought my plane from a lawyer. No problems. He had had all maintenance done by a top local MSC, for the last 10 years consistently. Since it's local, I continue to have my plane maintained at the same shop. Larry Quote
Marauder Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 My daughter, female, blond, and a lawyer is very tired of stereotyping jokes. Nevertheless... clichés do not become clichés unless there's a lot of truth behind them. Like dentists who drill perfectly good teeth once they find out you have dental insurance? That should stir things up a bit and get the focus of of those sleazy lawyers. I'm so glad I'm in the business sector. We never do ANYTHING wrong. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 The whole discussion of lawyers is completely off topic here anyways. The problem is not that the seller is a lawyer, it's that he's a douche bag lawyer. The lawyer part simply makes it easier for him to be a douche because he can write up fancy contracts full of legalese. A-holes are everywhere, and I've dealt with plenty in much less "professional" professions than the law. This guy is looking for input and advise on his airplane buying experience, lets try to do him a solid and stick with that. You're right of course. There are plenty exceptions. The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. (Damon Runyon) Quote
kmyfm20s Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 Like dentists who drill perfectly good teeth once they find out you have dental insurance? That should stir things up a bit and get the focus of of those sleazy lawyers. I'm so glad I'm in the business sector. We never do ANYTHING wrong. I think a dentist would argue that if it didn't have a crown it's not a perfectly good tooth in the first place:) That practice only evolved to pay the lawyers after they figured out how to bill 48hrs in a 24hr day sueing and defending us tooth guys. 1 Quote
Bravoman Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 Everyone hates us...until they need us! 1 Quote
Bravoman Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 Like dentists who drill perfectly good teeth once they find out you have dental insurance? That should stir things up a bit and get the focus of of those sleazy lawyers. I'm so glad I'm in the business sector. We never do ANYTHING wrong. It's because we lawyers keep you on the straight and narrow! 1 Quote
John Pleisse Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 To the original question, seems to me the buyer is proud of his plane, regrets selling it and is in his comfort zone with legal issues that will allow him to waffle a bit. If you think it is a good plane, get it done. 99% of plane purchases are for shit planes. If you are certain it is a great bird....see it through. 1 Quote
richardheitzman Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 best lawyer I ever met........my last divorce lawyer. Still send him Christmas cards. Back on topic. 1. don't fall in love with the airplane or the deal. 2. give a little, get a little in my book. Seller does not want to fly 300 miles for the PPE. Can you not find something closer? 3. Perfect advice already given on the Broker and the log books. No more need said on that subject. 4. Don't get buck fever and make a mistake you will regret. Your gut is telling you something and you need to listen. Sometimes it is not the overt actions that are the clue, but the covert actions that ring the loudest. With all that being said, I personally would have tried to go to the airplane instead of bringing the airplane to me. Tell the guy you will buy dinner and take him out for a beer or something. Just don't get so wound up. If he is not keeping his word on the verbal agreements, then that does say something about his character. I know a lot of airplane owners that I would not be friends with. Quote
carusoam Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 So many fish in the sea... If you knew the particular fish already and wanted to put up with the extra hassle it would be worth it. If you don't know this fish or its owner... Consider it the one that got away. Especially if you haven't seen it with your own eyes yet. (That would be step one) As for cutting losses, you don't have any real ones yet... The next real step is paying for the PPI. And then contention begins... You don't like what you find out and you no-longer want the plane... Then the question comes up when do you cut your losses! Buying a plane 300 miles away is a challenge. There are at least three trips involved. (1) to see it. (2) to close the deal, trade papers, or whatever you call it. (3) the delivery or shipping the owner back. It is unlikely to do it in less trips... It's not your first rodeo, buying 50 year old cars or houses 300 miles away isn't much different in terms of time and work or preparation and expense... If it was easy, everyone would do it. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
John Pleisse Posted January 14, 2015 Report Posted January 14, 2015 Also, I didn't quite get pre-buy issues. Many times, sellers are apprehensive about other shops snooping around their plane and any issues that may arise. Quote
Browncbr1 Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 If you said you did, but I didn't see it in the thread, my bad. But, if you haven't already, drive over and look at it in person and have a coffee with the guy and get to know him. Let him see that you are a fair and reasonable person. A little personal visit and diplomacy will make him a little more agreeable. Never stop negotiating. It's the plane you want, not him. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 Also, I didn't quite get pre-buy issues. Many times, sellers are apprehensive about other shops snooping around their plane and any issues that may arise. Sellers are afraid that your buddy the mechanic will declare the plane not airworthy leaving the seller in a bind, after all, the pre-buy mechanic works for you. Quote
fantom Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 If you said you did, but I didn't see it in the thread, my bad. But, if you haven't already, drive over and look at it in person and have a coffee with the guy and get to know him. Let him see that you are a fair and reasonable person. A little personal visit and diplomacy will make him a little more agreeable. Never stop negotiating. It's the plane you want, not him. Just lock up your wallet, your credit cards, your cash and your check book....beforehand. .....and your wife and daughter . Quote
RobertGary1 Posted January 15, 2015 Report Posted January 15, 2015 Sellers are afraid that your buddy the mechanic will declare the plane not airworthy leaving the seller in a bind, after all, the pre-buy mechanic works for you. Also that ham fistted mechanics will strip backings, etc causing the next round of panel R&R to take many additional hours. Electric screw drivers have dramatically increased the time to re-install panels. -Robert 1 Quote
Aerodon Posted January 18, 2015 Report Posted January 18, 2015 Thunder669, With all due respect you are well on your way to this happening: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/ There is no way you can expect the seller to fly in (arrive11:00am), do a PPI, negotiate the differences, finalize payment, then even think about flying / driving him home. A friend bought a 252 from a reputable dealer. He arrived in San Antonio on Monday, decided he like the plane well enough to proceed, arranged a PPI on Tuesday, Wednesday, closed the deal on Thursday, started a checkout on Thursday, and I arrived on Friday to help him fly it back. He was completely stressed out, and that's with a late model 1000TT plane. If you are buying a plane this old, the price of 4 hours of a CFI should be insignificant to you. As should the cost of the car rental to the seller. So should the cost of a failed transaction, as in failure to close. And most of all, to protect you from huge expenses or even a write off, get a proper PPI from a guy you trust. Be prepared to walk if everything is not right, two or three times if necessary. These are all very small numbers in comparison to the numbers you are about to see. Even with a C172, there are 'unexpected' $1000 items almost all the time. Carb overhaul this year, new magnetos next year, new starter, etc etc. If you get to retractable gear, variable pitch props, you step up to the league where you have $10,000 items, did you know that a gear trunnion on a C182RG now costs $17,000? I get the sense that you are in way over your head, both price wise and transaction wise. You should seriously consider getting a buyers broker to help you through this transaction (I'd run) or the next. I can assure you, there is another deal out there that is going to be better, it never ceases to amaze me of the high quality old planes that keep popping up from some hangar somewhere. I can also assure you, there is plenty of junk out there that is should be scrapped. Regards, Aerodon Quote
bonal Posted January 18, 2015 Report Posted January 18, 2015 Don't forget the title search. This can add a day or two as well. Quote
StinkBug Posted January 18, 2015 Report Posted January 18, 2015 I can assure you, there is another deal out there that is going to be better, it never ceases to amaze me of the high quality old planes that keep popping up from some hangar somewhere. I'll second this. Keep looking, some really nice planes are out there. I just got my new C home yesterday and though I did find some minor issues on the long flight home, overall I'm really impressed with it's condition. I also had an incredibly stress free simple buying experience, with the only exception being weather delaying the delivery, and a sick CFI that couldn't meet me there to bring it back. Nothing at all to do with the seller. Everything on that side went smooth as glass. There are nice planes out there, and decent people to buy them from. Quote
zx6rrider Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 Any update? That was a 5 page cliff hanger..... Good luck with your search. I too am looking, I love the brokers that say oh yea this is a SWEET plane but cant answer the simple questions that anyone with 30 seconds looking at a log book would know 1 Quote
Thunder669 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Report Posted January 21, 2015 After a bit more thinking and discussion I decided I just was not comfortable going any further with the deal. It may be a good plane, it may not be. But when I called and told the broker I was done with the seller the broker told me he doesn't blame me, couldn't be I put up with the sellers crap as long as I did, and said he was also done with him and would not be representing him anymore. Oh well there are a lot of good planes out there so the hunt continues Quote
zx6rrider Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 Dont blame you one bit, good luck with your search Quote
rbridges Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 probably for the best IMO. be sure to keep us updated. Quote
Marauder Posted January 21, 2015 Report Posted January 21, 2015 I wish I could do this with my mother-in-law. 3 Quote
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