m20flyer Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Here's my situation... I am the happy owner of a 1976 V35B. It is an all around wonderful airplane. It's powerful, it's comfortable, it has a good CG (important in the V-tails), I've just done a lot of preventative MX, and it has a working IFR panel though it's a little dated (Collins stack w/dual GS; Apollo GX50 map; stec 30 with alt and GPSS; EDM700 w/gamis). Despite my current ride, I am a Mooney fanatic. I have many hours in a M20F (full 201 conversion) with manual gear/flaps and I loved it. The systems are stone simple. In my book it's one of the best designs out there. Oh...and the IO-360 is bulletproof. Also, there are only four cylinders to top, not six! The wife has decided that starting a family and finding a good house is more important than having an airplane. I'm inclined to agree. I can make the whole thing work if I can find a suitable replacement aircraft for ~$40k, $45k max. Insurance mins aren't an issue. The first piece of advice has been "get a partner." This isn't going to happen. It's an all-or-nothing prospect for me. I can see way too many pitfalls in an aircraft partnership and I'm not willing to take that kind of risk. The second piece of advice has been "rent." This makes the most financial sense. Unfortunately, I'm irrational when it comes to plane ownership. Being able to roll it out and blast off when ever we want is part of the appeal of aircraft ownership. We budget for the fixed expenses and plan for the "worst cases" so plane ownership is more of a lifestyle thing for us. We're willing to give up elsewhere to own. My question is this: Is it reasonable to think I can buy a... a 1967 or 1968 M20F, with manual gear & flaps with a GPS tied to a 2 axis AP with GPSS (preferably an Stec30), with a mid time engine and AD-free prop, with O&N bladders, with a fair-to-good interior and 50' paint, with all logs (old DH with good repairs is acceptable), and a dry climate history with no/minimal corrosion... ...for $40k-$45k? Nav/Comms don't matter to me. In fact, I prefer older radios because (a) they don't break and (b ) if they do, replacements only cost a few hundred bucks. King stack would be nice but isn't a must-have. A waas GPS may be worth paying a little more for but it's not a requirement either. How much does SB208 compliance cost? That would have to happen as part of the pre-buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 SB208 will get lost in the noise if it hasn't already been done. You should check it during a pre-buy in any case. I hate to be negative, but to get a plane with all of your wish-list, especially a modern autopilot + GPSS, AD-free prop and mid-time engine you'll have to be very, very lucky. Like stumbling into an estate sale and getting it before the survivors figure out what it is worth. An AD-free prop, GPS, autopilot are roughly +$20k in upgrades alone. I think you'll be closer to $60k for all that, than $45k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Yes... You just have to find it. Was that what you were looking for? Know what a PPI is. Be aware of insurance costs. Unfortunately, there isn't a store that has everything you want at a price that is affordable to you, and no guarantees... Mid length Mooneys with modern panels and new engines are preferred over old Cs that need immediate work. More importantly... Kids are expensive. If two of you are working, day care costs are more than plane payments. There are two major life changing events that you are trying to accomplish... Plane ownership and family building. Get started, spread things out, everything has a good chance to be worked out. Finances can be strained when things don't go as planned. And they won't... Especially if your second child turns into a twin... Might I suggest a good C? I went with two kids and a C over a three year period. 18 years later they are two HS students and an R. Your wife will need to be on board with this thinking, or the plane or your status will have to go. Sorry, I gave you a life lesson. When all you wanted was advice on an expensive toy... Kids are a wonderful real responsibility. GA planes are mostly toys in comparison. All of them are expensive. This would be so much easier if your wife was a pilot also, or her family has a plane.... You are in charge of your own destiny. Think often and share your thoughts with that other person. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Also, I'll add that it would likely be cheaper to keep what you have... the old "devil you know" conundrum. I'm not sure what the motivation is to change planes if the Bo fits your mission right now since it would likely do everything an F would, but at slightly higher operating costs. Are you looking to recover some of the equity and put it towards a house? BTW, the 4 IO-360 cylinders will cost more than 6 Continental cylinders if you buy new ones. I agree about sole ownership too and understand the desire to stay that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Wow that's a loaded question! I would say the short answer is no! Our E does not have half the stuff you mention. You might find someone with a nice C that is done flying and just wants to unload it. Some C's sell for 50k! I'm sure you could find a solid F for that price, but it just won't have all the stuff listed. If you find an aircraft your interested in just have an annual preformed and comply with 208. I would not overlook a partnership in the V-tail. It's a known airplane for you with more room for all the kiddo stuff! Strollers, car seats, 2 kids and mama is a lot in a Mooney. Good luck! -Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Re-reading the thread to try and stay on topic... 1) Nav/coms aren't important to you. 2) Old radios don't break.....? 2a) io360 is bullet proof....let's redefine that when you are ready. Nobody has really shot bullets at it have they? Oxygen resistance during long periods of disuse is a more poignant discussion... 3) I expect you may think I don't make sense... 4) define your plane's mission. The one you describe is a fast efficient cross-country machine. Nav/coms are critical to long distance flying. I hope this is helpful. I'm not trying to be an old coger today... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Maybe you should try to sell the V35 first, then you will be in a better position to know what you want to spend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1976-MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1335821.htm Has everything you want at twice the price, and still a pretty decent value. (has electric gear and flaps, though/unfortunately) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Being an F owner, the deal breaker will most likely be the GPS/AP you want. Those two items will eat up half of the value of a $50k airplane. I agree with the others above who suggested keeping the Bo. I suspect you may have financed it and that is part of your decision process. Sell it and take the equity to buy what you want outright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m20flyer Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I agree the kid(s) will be expensive but we've planned for it. The reason for the sale is to round out our down payment on a new home. Selling the Bonanza will push us well beyond the 20% threshold in our price range. I agree that keeping the devil you know is ALWAYS favorable to buying a whole new devil. I've seen enough partnerships go south to have the idea scare me and can just visualize may partner skidding down the runway on the belly or telling me to go pound sand when a major repair is necessary. I've considered selling the Bonanza now and I will certainly sell it before buying again. I'm just trying to figure out how much a workable replacement will cost. So, my wish list will cost >$45k. That's great feedback! Thank you! If I give up the O&N, back off the GPSS (retain a working 2-axis), and tolerate a high time engine (OH fund is already banked), where would you put my chances? EDIT - REPLY TO N601RX (BELOW) and CARUSOAM (above) N601RX - Good point. Speed mods aren't required but I'll certainly take what I can get. The big ones are the cowl and the w/s. CARUSOAM - Thanks for the lesson. The wife loves the plane and hates to see the Bonanza go. I'm actually the one pushing for the "resource reallocation." We're looking for a cheaper plane precisely for the reasons you've listed. The possibility of a C is very real if we can't find an F that fits the bill. We're going to have tall a kid (she's 6'0", I'm 6'3") so leg room really isn't an optional item. The legroom problem is years off, but that leads us back to the "the devil you know" saying. Her family is familiar with light planes. Edited to remove the first paragraph. It came across as aggressive and that's not what I was going for...sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 If your willing to accept an F that doesn't have any speed mods you may be able to find what you want. Usually the ones without the 201 front window and a few of the other desirable mods don't sell as well as the ones with the mods and the price is discounted to get them to sale. You may not find everything you want, but should be able to find one that has some of the things you want. The Brittain autopilot is much more common in this vintage plane than the Stec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Have you considered a flying club? Having sold a C not long ago that exceeded your expectations (and your price) I'm having a hard time thinking you can meet your budget on a plane that's not needing a ton of work. The transaction costs of taking a loan against the Bo may be lower than selling it and finding a new plane ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The GPSS is relatively inexpensive. Bladders vs. reseal is always a huge debate...just search here if you want to learn all about them. I personally count them as a negative and it could cause me to pass over a plane. If you found a plane with a modern reseal from one of the very few experts, then it should give you equivalent peace-of-mind, and +30-40 lbs of additional useful load. If bladders are a must-have for you, then you won't value a good re-seal. If it were me, I'd find a way to keep the Bo...delay the house purchase a bit, work extra, sell a kidney, whatever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 As an owner of a '66E that I would not sell for anywhere near your budget, I hope the market is higher than your wish list. I do have more panel than you're looking for but even with your specs I think you'll need to pay more. You might benefit from a call to Jimmy Garrison at All American. He should have as good a feel for for the current market as anyone. www.allamericanaircraft.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Bladders vs. reseal is always a huge debate...just search here if you want to learn all about them. I personally count them as a negative and it could cause me to pass over a plane. As far as I can ascertain from several previous threads here, this is a point of view not shared by anyone who actually owns a bladder equipped Mooney. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 As far as I can ascertain from several previous threads here, this is a point of view not shared by anyone who actually owns a bladder equipped Mooney. I don't doubt it! To each their own. I just know in my case if my plane had bladders I would not be able to fly one of my missions due to the extra weight, so it is a deal-breaker for me. Everyone else's mileage may vary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m20flyer Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 All of the responses are helpful! I'm getting a better idea of where the Mooney market sits. I'd join a club if I could be guaranteed reliable access to a respectable XC machine. I would join "Group 3" of this club today if I lived in the area: http://www.lostnation.com/aircraft.php I'll look into selling a kidney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 If it were me, I'd find a way to keep the Bo...delay the house purchase a bit, work extra, sell a kidney, whatever. how about putting the babies to work? infants nowadays have such a feeling of entitlement. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 As far as I can ascertain from several previous threads here, this is a point of view not shared by anyone who actually owns a bladder equipped Mooney. ROTFLMAO..... This from the man who only two days ago said, "I think we learn to love the girl we married..." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moodychief Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Don't forget, the three bladed prop doesn't have an AD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 ROTFLMAO..... This from the man who only two days ago said, "I think we learn to love the girl we married..." I trust you do not find a conflict there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 As far as I can ascertain from several previous threads here, this is a point of view not shared by anyone who actually owns a bladder equipped Mooney. Perhaps that's because so few of us are willing to buy bladders, pay for install and cut new holes in our wings. Check out the Mooney Flyer, I forget the website. Brittain APs are great additions to the basic PC wing leveler. I love mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I would opt for a C model that is in order with everything straight, rather than except lower expectations for an F model that would need work. The 208 A/B AD's should be done on the entire fleet, so if you come across one in non-compliance, I would pass. I think your profile is a $55-60k airplane. Also, if you are a brand B guy, why not consider an E-Series Bonanza. I found a 2 owner, 2300 TT, F35 with a 180 SMOH engine, 40 SPOH, include: manuals, Bose headsets, GPS, and the entire contents of the hangar for under $35k. The E-225's are as bullet proof as the IO360's and the electric prop really is't that big of a deal. I have met four people who have run E225 engines 1500 hours at a crack with little mx. They fly great and I would say better than S and later V tails. Having owned both, I can appreciate your desire for a good late 60's M20F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m20flyer Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I'm looking at the E series 35s and early 33s. I don't have any brand loyalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted September 13, 2014 Report Share Posted September 13, 2014 The loyalty should be to the mission , not the brand.....That being said , you are giving away a LOT of mission to save on equity....If you fly missions over 200 NM with more than 2 people in the airplane , this is not a lateral move to recoup equity....It is an all out Downsize....I owned both for the last two years, Flying both rich of peak , for 3.5 GPH you are 30 mph faster , can carry 300 lbs more payload , Have a gear system that is much more robust as far as unimproved fields (grass) , do not have the wetwing problems , do not have the corrosion issues that the older Mooney fleet has , Giving up an extremely stable platform , and the easiest plane hands down to fly and land..... Don't get me wrong , I love Mooneys , and they are great planes , But the plane you are flying now is more equivalent to a Bravo , not a 40 year old short body..... The other wild card , is the Lycoming cam issues.......Although rare , if it happens to you it is a tough pill to swallow.... If equity is the goal , the solution would be to sell the plane and rent until it is more financially feasible.....With the value of aircraft depreciating as it is , the same money you sell for now , should buy a lot more airplane in the future.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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