Panel Upgrade Time!

[rubixcube2k3]

Well, as some of you may know, I'm trying to finalize my decision on some panel modernization. One thing that I have to come to realize so far in my instrument training: No DME, an Inop ADF and a marginally functional GS is not comforting for me to be hitting the conditions I plan to fly in. The comfort level goes even further down when I think about having my wife and daughter flying with me in those same conditions.

 

For what it's worth, I think I have settled in on the Garmin 650 for my GPS, keeping one of my Mac1700s and the CDI it feeds.  I initially planned on putting in a EI MVP50, but after looking at my expenditures a little closer, I'm entertaining a Aspen PFD 1000 Pro now and then coming back for the 1000 MFD and the MVP 50 next year. (Giving me a Evolution 2000 system and being able to remove the original gauges and when all is said and done.) 

 

The question I have for you ladies and gentleman is whether I would still need a GI106A/ MD200-306 if I have the aspen, or if it can act as the CDI for my 650. I'm new to this, so I apologize if this is a simple question. 

 

Any other advice you may have is also greatly appreciated, and definitely will be considered. 

 

Warmest Regards, 

Abe L. Harper, Jr. 

[Bob_Belville]

The Aspen will be all the NAV Head you will need for the 650. I has 3 needles, one works like a HSI, the other 2 like an ADF dial, always pointing to the station. When you shoot a loc(ils) approach you can switch from GPS to VOR/LOC as needed.

[Marauder]

Abe -- been through this process with similar hardware. I wouldn't buy the GI106. It is not needed. The Aspen PFD as Bob mentions will act as either a full localizer/glideslope capable ILS or handle the LPV.

When I did my upgrade, I dumped all of the CDIs for the Aspen. If you have questions, let me know. I have an Aspen 2000, a 650 and a Narco Mark 12D+.

What do you have for an AP?

Here is my setup:

To give you an idea what the system will give you during an approach, take a look at this video I made:

http://youtu.be/o-B_9SzekTo

[rubixcube2k3]

Bob, Thanks so much! 

 

Marauder, Looking at your panel is like looking at my future. Your F has the EXACT same layout at my C, so its like looking at the finished product. The main difference is that I am still behind the Brittian Accuflite for the AutoPilot. I'm not entirely sure that I'll do much, if anything to change that. I've used it twice in my ownership. Partially because I haven't trusted my VORs to track a needle accurately, Partially because I enjoy hand flying the plane so much, that I seldom want hands off time. I'm guessing that thought process may change a little bit with time as an instrument rated pilot, but for now, it is what it is. 

 

The only other thing that has caught my attention is as to whether it is in my better of interest to get a 430W or 530W instead of the 650 since I'm seeing that the Aspen has a "Connected Module" for pilots with them and iOS devices. (I love my ipad, espeically when It makes my life easier in the cabin) I don't think I want a GPS that old, but, I wonder how long it'll be before that module is compatible with the 650.

[Marauder]

Aspen was stopped dead in their tracks with Connected Pilot for the 650/750 when Garmin changed the firmware. It also limited the cross feed for the 430/530 (as announced in a customer letter they sent). Connected Pilot worked on the concept of sending the flight plan from the iPad (using ForeFlight) through the Aspen back into the 430. Garmin just introduced a similar product that will upload the flight plan from the iPad using Garmin Pilot to the GTN and GNS series. I think it will require the GDL-88 (haven't looked too closely at the product yet). I would check with the avionics shops on the Accuflite interface with the Aspen. Aspen does a great job of interfacing with analog autopilots and you may find that GPSS role steering may be available as part of the Aspen PFD purchase. Once you go GPSS, you won't want to go back! The main advantage to the autopilot interface is to keep you fresh on long flights. I find I am lot more sharp at the end of a long flight when I let the AP to the long boring legs. Worthwhile looking into. There are a lot of 430/530s out there. I have recently had a chance to fly behind a 430. Night and day difference between the 430 and 650. Soooo much easier on the 650. Again, if you have questions, let us know. We probably can answer your question.

[Bob_Belville]

Abe, before you make a puchase you should try to get a flight with a plane with Aspen and 650/750 GTN. I was given this clearance today while just off the ground from 6B6 and about to go IMC: GLYDE V292 SASHA T295 LAAYK V93 LRP dir destination (KLNS). With the GTN750 it was a piece of cake. (Those 3 airway segments probably had at least 15 waypoints.) Once I was at cruise and in the soup ATC kept making changes allowing me to cut corners. The changes were in the form of direct to a waypoint further along the flight plan. Again, no big deal, hit the dir button, select fltplan, find the fix and hit it and confirm. You're done, nothing to delete or enter. And GPSS is flying the plane along the flight plan course while you're editing.

 

I do not own an IPad or othe tablet. I don't carry charts anymore. I have a scrap of paper to copy clearances. The rest is in the certified boxes and a GPS 696 which mostly play XM Radio Jazz these days.

 

The 750 is big enough to do a good job displaying traffic and weather as well. I can click on an airport on the map and get info including latest ATIS. 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

My vote regarding 650 vs. 430W/530W/iPad: Put the power in the panel if you can afford it. The human interface of the 530/430 is atrocious compared to the current units, iPad or not, and Garmin will stop supporting them sooner.

[cliffy]

Bob  that is one of the nicest Mooney panels I have ever seen. Great job and layout.

[larryb]

I have a GTN650 + Aspen PFD + SL30 as my 2nd navcom. Initially I had my mechanical backup indicator connected to the GTN. My theory was that if the Aspen died I could still fly a gps/vor/ils approach with the GTN and backup indicator. Now that I have lived with the setup for a while, I wish I had put the backup indicator on the SL30 instead. The reason is, when the GTN is set to indicate the GPS, you get a nice data block on the Aspen that tells you the next waypoint, distance, and time. When you are flying a VOR or ILS approach and set the GTN CDI to VLOC this data block disappears. Now, if you have the backup indicator on your #2 traditional radio, you can leave the GTN in GPS mode and monitor the approach on the #2 radio and indicator.

 

So to answer your question, I would keep the Mac1700 and the CDI it feeds. You can also feed the Aspen from the Mac1700 in addition.

 

Larry

[Oscar Avalle]

I have an Aspen PFD, GTN 750, a GTN 430 and a 795. I use the GTN as the main navigator, the 430 mainly for traffic and the Stormscope. The 795 is connected to a GDL 39 3D, so I use that in the US for weather and as a back up, for planning purposes etc.

 

So to answer your question: I would kee the Mac 1700 and add the rest of the equipment.

 

I love Maurader's panel, sometimes I wonder if I should have gone that route myself. Here is just a picture of my set up.

 

[Marauder]

I love Maurader's panel, sometimes I wonder if I should have gone that route myself. Here is just a picture of my set up.

Stop being silly! Your panel is awesome! I wasn't so sure about a second Aspen but since it was installed, no complaints. It is nice knowing I have a full backup sitting in waiting if something happens with the primary PFD.

I wish the 750s were cheaper than they are. ~$5k difference was just too much of a delta for me to justify. And to be quite honest, I rarely look at the 650 once the flightplan is loaded.

The power of the 750 is the full keyboard entry of information. That will become less important if I make the jump to their new connected panel.

[Bob_Belville]

Stop being silly! Your panel is awesome! I wasn't so sure about a second Aspen but since it was installed, no complaints. It is nice knowing I have a full backup sitting in waiting if something happens with the primary PFD.

I wish the 750s were cheaper than they are. ~$5k difference was just too much of a delta for me to justify. And to be quite honest, I rarely look at the 650 once the flightplan is loaded.

The power of the 750 is the full keyboard entry of information. That will become less important if I make the jump to their new connected panel.

B26, the full panel feature of the 750 doesn't come into play often. If ATC gives me a clearance with a 5 letter waypoint it will be the exit of an airway. So after I select the airway I am asked to pick the exit point by scrolling thru the waypoints along the airway and clicking on the right one. Even If my scribble is misspelled I can recognize the right fix. And I don't type in an airway, in the flight plan page I select the entry fix and select the airway from the list of all airways that go thru that fix.  

 

Did I mention I really love the 750 as I discover more cool, intuitive features? 

[Oscar Avalle]

I am in the process of upgrading my autopilot to a stec55x...My avionics shop had promised me that the plane would be ready this wednesday. I contacted them today to check on the work. I got really surprised when they told me that stec had send them a 28V version instead of the 14v... bummer now I have to wait until the unit goes back and I get a new one, hopefully next week...

 

Just sharing my frustration.

[Oscar Avalle]

Bob, Thanks so much! 

 

Marauder, Looking at your panel is like looking at my future. Your F has the EXACT same layout at my C, so its like looking at the finished product. The main difference is that I am still behind the Brittian Accuflite for the AutoPilot. I'm not entirely sure that I'll do much, if anything to change that. I've used it twice in my ownership. Partially because I haven't trusted my VORs to track a needle accurately, Partially because I enjoy hand flying the plane so much, that I seldom want hands off time. I'm guessing that thought process may change a little bit with time as an instrument rated pilot, but for now, it is what it is. 

 

The only other thing that has caught my attention is as to whether it is in my better of interest to get a 430W or 530W instead of the 650 since I'm seeing that the Aspen has a "Connected Module" for pilots with them and iOS devices. (I love my ipad, espeically when It makes my life easier in the cabin) I don't think I want a GPS that old, but, I wonder how long it'll be before that module is compatible with the 650.

I agree using GPSS is amazing. I flew from Key West to Guatemala city. More than 5.5 hours in route. GPSS steers the plane and allows you to plan ahead and arrive much fresher. However, just be careful not to fall asleep...

[rubixcube2k3]

Just wanted to thank everyone so far for all the feedback. There's so much wisdom and knowledge here, and I cannot express my gratitude enough for all of your positive and constructive feedback so far. 

I have sent out requests to 4 "local" shops today, so I'm awaiting their reply with quotes. In one of the calls, I was asked "'How Soon?' because we are really slow right now. Got some stuff brewing, but not much going on." Believe it or not, this is one of the larger shops locally, so it shocked me to hear that. Also raised my eyebrow as to how seriously I will consider them.  The others all said, "We'll get back with you in the next couple of days and get you a quote. " We'll see what develops. 

 

I have not yet contacted him, but there is a shop that advertises on Ebay called Ron Collins Aviation. Does anyone have any experience with them? Their price for the Aspen installed seems fair, and they have a Mooney as their showcase graphic.   While in Henderson Kentucky, I would entertain the trip and maybe even wait if there are glowing reviews on them. 

[Marauder]

Good luck on selecting a shop. Ask around about the quality of the shop you are considering. Many of them are respectable, but there are dead beats amongst them.

Also get a firm quote not an estimate. If necessary, take the plane to them so they can look it over for the quote. Nothing worse than them coming back with a surprise for you.

[rubixcube2k3]

Oscar, 

 

Not that it matters, but I'm guessing you didn't take the land route? That may just make you my hero with a C Model. I've been fretting my Crossing the Gulf from Panama City, FL to Cross City, FL enroute to Tampa. I've always stuck to land routes where possible. I have a ton of faith in my bird considering that I let it take me from point to point, but overcoming that fear of waiting in the ocean for a pickup is just too great of a struggle at the moment still for me.  Just wanted to make that note :-)

[urbanti]

My experiences with several avionics installs:

When done you will want one steam gauge indicator in addition to the Aspen to display your nav2 in the event that the Aspen goes down. I have the 2 panel setup in F33A and have had to "revert" from 1 to 2 when 1 went down (infant mortality issue) so if you only have one Aspen panel you need to have a plan B.

Get rid of your ADF or be prepared to demonstrate NDB approaches during your instrument checkride Also eliminating the antenna looks like a great drag reduction opportunity.

Many Aspen users find that a steam gauge VSI is good to retain even if you have Aspens for IFR.

While it's laudable that you like to hand fly, a working autopilot is really important in IMC to reduce workload in the event that things get confusing, or you get tired and need to take a break before a tough approach, etc. IFR in turbulence can be exhausting.

I have a GTN750/Aspen setup in my Bonanza and use a 430 in the M20E and the 430 feels really obsolete in comparison, I would go with a GTN if you have the opportunity.

While MFDs are great, many people also use a mini-ipad in the cockpit for instrument approaches b/c you can position it closer to your eyes so that you can read the little teeny numbers (like the minimums).

Am super envious of the two panels pictured in this thread.

Tim

[Oscar Avalle]

Oscar, 

 

Not that it matters, but I'm guessing you didn't take the land route? That may just make you my hero with a C Model. I've been fretting my Crossing the Gulf from Panama City, FL to Cross City, FL enroute to Tampa. I've always stuck to land routes where possible. I have a ton of faith in my bird considering that I let it take me from point to point, but overcoming that fear of waiting in the ocean for a pickup is just too great of a struggle at the moment still for me.  Just wanted to make that note :-)

 

I did take the route over the gulf. Actually, I did it already three times. I am nervous? Not too much, I trust my bird and you are always relatively close to land and under radar control. I am more concerned when I fly over land areas in Central America where there is not much radar coverage and if you have to land you may not be so welcomed...

[Bob_Belville]

Abe, if you're considering a KY shop you might want  to call the shop I work with in Mocksville NC:

They might not be the cheapest but I can vouch for their knowledge and meticulousness.  

 

http://www.greeraerospace.com/

[rubixcube2k3]

Bob, Thanks for the recommendation on the shop in NC. I'll call them today as well.

 

I think I forgot to mention in my previous post, the 4 Shops I'm talking to are Monarch Aviation - De Funiak Springs, FL , Mid South Avionics - Tuscaloosa, AL,  Mike Swift - Pensacola, Florida, and Southern Avionics - Mobile, AL. 

 

Any input or PIREPs on experiences with these guys is greatly appreciated. All seemed polite and professional, but that's before they get the plane, opportunity, and funding. I definitely trust opinions here more than anything else in shopping for the right place to get this done. 

 

Also feel free to contact me directly off thread with recommendation or warning, if you wish.

 

Again, Thanks Everyone!

 

Abe

[Marauder]

When you get the quotes and are trying to figure out the differences, PM us the details and we can help you figure out what they are quoting. Some of the shops can cut corners and not wire up stuff that would work together.

I am not familiar with any of these shops. I'm sure someone will know them.

[Bob_Belville]

When you get the quotes and are trying to figure out the differences, PM us the details and we can help you figure out what they are quoting. Some of the shops can cut corners and not wire up stuff that would work together.

I am not familiar with any of these shops. I'm sure someone will know them.

And there are several options with most of this equipment, be sure you know which version you're getting and what a little more might get you. (Since he knows you're getting other quotes he does not dare quote anything except the lowest priced version of each element.)

[Oldguy]

Bob, Thanks for the recommendation on the shop in NC. I'll call them today as well.

 

I think I forgot to mention in my previous post, the 4 Shops I'm talking to are Monarch Aviation - De Funiak Springs, FL , Mid South Avionics - Tuscaloosa, AL,  Mike Swift - Pensacola, Florida, and Southern Avionics - Mobile, AL. 

 

Any input or PIREPs on experiences with these guys is greatly appreciated. All seemed polite and professional, but that's before they get the plane, opportunity, and funding. I definitely trust opinions here more than anything else in shopping for the right place to get this done. 

 

Also feel free to contact me directly off thread with recommendation or warning, if you wish.

 

Again, Thanks Everyone!

 

Abe

I have had some good experiences with Mid-South in Tuscaloosa when I was a C-pilot, but understand they have had some personnel changes since then. Don't know if that would affect anything, but worth a mention.

 

There is a 252 driver at our airport (KPLR) who takes all of his avionics work to Southern Avionics in Mobile. He averages between 400 to 500 hours a year in the air and has glowing reports on them.

 

YMMV.

[rubixcube2k3]

Ok, Have a question. I've had someone propose a CGR-30 instead of the MVP50, and get rid of the OAT, upper instrument cluster and EGT. Anyone have any experience with the CGR over the MVP? I actually like the concept if it works, as I don't foresee myself having a completely glass aircraft (not at least while within my sane financial judgement).