Survivability of GA Crashes

[aaronk25]

Not sure I agree with risk trade of of flap vs no flap water ditching. The flaps are worth 5-7kts when used in ground effect. I think I might take the slower speed and deal with the additional forward nose down force. Head scratcher...not sure.

[carusoam]

Anyone have the old video of a mooney landing next to a light ship in the pacific? Mid 60's black and white...

Planned landing after projected fuel exhaustion on the way to Hawaii. Probably ADF navigation.

I believe it is self explanatory if you can find it.

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

There have been quite a few amphib pontoon pilots who have tried the gear-down landing in the water by taking off from a field and forgetting to retract it before  landing in a lake.  The nose-over forward flip that results is instantaneous and violent, and puts the aircraft on its back in the water.  Probably some have survived it, but I am not aware of any, and there have been a few deaths in our area from that exact thing.  It would not be my choice.  Always gear up in the water. 

[drmarkflies]

Thanks guys. Gear up, 10-degrees flaps it is. The vid link rwsavory put up was great. I always pondered what the horizontal stabilizer would do... it appears not very much.

 

M

[DaV8or]

At what we think was Vref (77 kts in the long body Mooney) on dry concrete, it took about 110 feet to stop with gear up. I helped get an Ovation back on it wheels and went back to measure the skid. If you stand on the brakes, which I did at CGS to avoid hitting a deer, it took about 350 feet in my M20M. A lot of burning rubber and a tire ripped off the rim, but didn't hurt the airplane (or the deer).

 

So... wheels up is about 1/3 the distance of wheels down on dry concrete. Wheels up would be a bit further on asphalt.

 

That's why I brought it up. How many pilots in a real emergency passed up a perfectly good 300' parking lot thinking there was no way they could safely land there and continued on in hopes of something longer only to end up in trees, houses, or worse, a stall on the way to a runway?

[DaV8or]

Anyone have the old video of a mooney landing next to a light ship in the pacific? Mid 60's black and white...

Planned landing after projected fuel exhaustion on the way to Hawaii. Probably ADF navigation.

I believe it is self explanatory if you can find it.

Best regards,

-a-

 

I have seen that film/video and have looked for it many times and can't find it. It's awesome. It shows the Mooney pilot easily ditching the plane next to a large boat and then calmly getting out and walking on the wing in a leisure suit.

[mooniac15u]

That's why I brought it up. How many pilots in a real emergency passed up a perfectly good 300' parking lot thinking there was no way they could safely land there and continued on in hopes of something longer only to end up in trees, houses, or worse, a stall on the way to a runway?

 

A 300 foot parking lot could be a bit dicey.  My 351 feet was post-touchdown skid.  I used several hundred feet of runway bleeding off airspeed before I touched down.  An approach into a parking lot with a flare could use significantly more than 300 feet.

[Alan Fox]

Ain't no flares in a parking lot , no wheels either , slam it down and hope for the best...

[FlyDave]

My first power instructor asked me early on when we started flying were I would put it down if I had to right now (heavily populated area with no good places). I looked at him and said "I dunno".

He said he would put it down in that field right there and let the fence at the end do it's job...sounded good to me then, sounds good to me now.

[mooniac15u]

Ain't no flares in a parking lot , no wheels either , slam it down and hope for the best...

That's a good point. I didn't have wheels but I was trying to put it down as gently as possible. I had 5000' of runway so stopping distance wasn't a priority. I probably could have pitched it up pretty nose high and planted it a lot harder and shorter.

[Hondo]

Like McClure said, my biggest fear is also a take off power failure and fire.

A friend with over 20,000 hours and multiple jet type ratings, lost power on takeoff at less than 300'.

The only field available wasn't good enough.  The Mooney fuel tanks ruptured and exploded on contact.

 

marks mentioned the death turnback.  

Here is an article about the impossible turn.  http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf

 

With no good options in front, how much altitude would you require to consider turning back?

 

Looks like landing in water may be a better option due to fire risk, unless there is a good spot on land.

Thanks for the no flap tip.

[pinerunner]

There have been quite a few amphib pontoon pilots who have tried the gear-down landing in the water by taking off from a field and forgetting to retract it before  landing in a lake.  The nose-over forward flip that results is instantaneous and violent, and puts the aircraft on its back in the water.  Probably some have survived it, but I am not aware of any, and there have been a few deaths in our area from that exact thing.  It would not be my choice.  Always gear up in the water. 

We should keep in mind that the amphib pontoon wheels-down scenario is the worst possible case. The wheels are such a long distance below the CG making for a long moment arm. A C-172 landplane might make out a little better. For us its obviously wheels up in a water landing.

[BorealOne]

This story is making the news at home in Labrador - guy flying a 206 to Greenland lost oil pressure and had to ditch. Chose a good location - he was looked after by locals even before the professionals could arrive on-scene. Gear down in his situation didn't seem to make a difference - but I'd go in gear up, of course.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/from-berry-picking-to-plane-crash-rescue-mission-1.2752567

[Ventus4]

I know it may sound strange, but one of the best suggestion i can contribute with is:

Take a glider rating or at laest some glider lessons.

Modern gliders have approaching speed of 55-60knots, weight 1500lbs and have a glider ratio with airspeed brakes

Out very close to any single with no engine and flap down, but they give you an amazing psychological advantage:

They have no engine :-)

You cannot go around an you must know how to always make the runway or alternatively the spot you decide to land.

Very soon the instructor teaches you the first rule: fly it never let the plane stall, kept the right speed.

No TROTTLE to compensate for misapproach.

You will find yourself very soon automatically spotting for place to land always and mentally computing the

Required altitude always, and feel a little bit confortable you can successfully manage a silent landing.

Have safe fly

Andrea