Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 We had a thread a while back on transporting wine but does anyone know whether it is risky to transport home canning products in an unpressurized cabin? Quote
Joe Zuffoletto Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 I don't know the answer to this question, but I know it's "hazardous" to transport unopened bags of chips up high in an unpressurized cabin. When they start popping open in the back seat it scares the bejeezus out of you! 2 Quote
1964-M20E Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 I don't know the answer to this question, but I know it's "hazardous" to transport unopened bags of chips up high in an unpressurized cabin. When they start popping open in the back seat it scares the bejeezus out of you! been there done that. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Posted July 2, 2014 I don't know the answer to this question, but I know it's "hazardous" to transport unopened bags of chips up high in an unpressurized cabin. When they start popping open in the back seat it scares the bejeezus out of you! I'm thinking pickle or green bean juice in the baggage carpet might overpower the nice leather smell I now enjoy when I open the door of the plane. 1 Quote
Andy95W Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 We had a thread a while back on transporting wine but does anyone know whether it is risky to transport home canning products in an unpressurized cabin? You should be okay, since the canning process creates a slight vacuum in the jar, altitude will only decrease the resultant pressure differential between the jar and its environment. The wine discussion was the opposite, with greater pressure inside the wine bottle than ambient. I say SHOULD be okay because if anything happens I'm not cleaning up the mess. Good luck! Quote
Seth Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 I transported wine in the Mooney and didn't have an issue (I even flew as high as 17,000 feet during the trip. I admit I was worried, but more about the wine getting hot or "cooking" on the ramp rather than the pressure (stopped in wine country in CA last year during my round the country flight). I flew up to Seattle, then across to Minnesota, then back to DC in the mid teens. Most of the ground time was at night. For cans and pressure. I know there are is an anti bear spray that is not allowed to be put onboard aircraft, and that some Alaskan pilots strap to struts to carry with them outside the cabin. I'm guessing as long as the containers are sealed properly and have been proven through engineering tests to withhold the pressure change, then it should be okay. I too, would not want a spill/explosive decompressing in my aircraft. -Seth Quote
Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Posted July 2, 2014 I guess I could put a case of jars in a trash bag to contain any spills. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Posted July 2, 2014 I transported wine in the Mooney and didn't have an issue (I even flew as high as 17,000 feet during the trip. I admit I was worried, but more about the wine getting hot or "cooking" on the ramp rather than the pressure (stopped in wine country in CA last year during my round the country flight). I flew up to Seattle, then across to Minnesota, then back to DC in the mid teens. Most of the ground time was at night. -Seth I make Muscadine wine and I have carried it in the Mooney to 10,000 or so w/o incident. Quote
Marauder Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 Leave it Bob to find us an interesting topic! Bob - the only thing I would worry about is if the vacuum gets broken by being at altitude. If that happens, you will be eating lots of pickles and green beans over the next few days. On my trip to Latrobe to see Brett, I had something happen which I thought was interesting. I was carrying a couple dozen pop/soda cans with ice packs to keep them cold. At 8,500 I heard a couple of loud pops from the cooler area and I thought a couple of the cans let loose. When I arrived in Latrobe, none of the cans were popped. When I got back home and I was putting the ice packs back in the freezer, I found a couple of the ice packs had the ice split in two inside the container. The only I can figure happened was air was trapped inside the ice and expanded in the ice and caused them to crack making the popping sound. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote
FlyDave Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 Last weekend I flew from my home airport (o69) to Payson, AZ (KPAN) at 21,000' (pic attached). I brought an unopened bottle of Ron Zacapa rum (If you like rum you'll love Ron Zacapa!). I had no issues with this bottle of rum and it tasted as good in Payson, AZ as it does Novato, CA. http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/35721-n1085g-o69-to-kpan/ Quote
WardHolbrook Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 You should be okay, since the canning process creates a slight vacuum in the jar, altitude will only decrease the resultant pressure differential between the jar and its environment. The wine discussion was the opposite, with greater pressure inside the wine bottle than ambient. I say SHOULD be okay because if anything happens I'm not cleaning up the mess. Good luck! I was in an Aztec when be broke out the lunch sacks. We had a cooler in the back where we kept the lunch and a 6-pack of soft drinks. The guy right behind me was the first to open his can of Coke. You can probably guess what happened next. What a mess - Coke a cola was everywhere, carpet, headliner, sidewalls, back of my head, on the instrument panel, Not one of my best days. It took a long time to get everything cleaned up. Quote
Mooneymite Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 Generally, 10,000' isn't a big deal in terms of presurized items. If you go into the flight levels, you gotta be more careful. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Posted July 2, 2014 Generally, 10,000' isn't a big deal in terms of presurized items. If you go into the flight levels, you gotta be more careful. Yeah, the lid on canned goods is pulled in by the slight vacuum created when the contents cool. The seal is a compound that softens with heat to conform to the rim of the glass. If the air pressure outside the "vessel" were to get low enough one might imagine the seal might not hold. Quantifying the forces is the question. Quote
aviatoreb Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 I remember first time I went I had the same worries regarding bringing home live lobster at 10k. I like to make $100 lobster runs to Maine since it is about an hour away. I was worried the lobster would a) simply die with not enough air, freeze to death, c) explode! d) escape and crawl all over the cabin creating havoc sort of like the B-movie "snakes-in-a-plane." None of the above happened and the half dozen or lobsters that arrive at my house happy and safe ready to be boiled for a good meal. I have done this many times, and also with MD blue crabs. 1 Quote
chrisk Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 For cans and pressure. I know there are is an anti bear spray that is not allowed to be put onboard aircraft, and that some Alaskan pilots strap to struts to carry with them outside the cabin. Assuming anti-bear spray is also not pilot friendly (pepper spray comes to mind), I can understand why it would be kept outside the cockpit. As for transporting home canned goods, I have no experience, but I'd probably error on the side of caution and put them in a cooler. If they pop, the flying parts and liquid would be contained. And I'm supposed to fly this weekend with my wife. --I think I'll have some fun and bring a few small bags of chips just to see her reaction. Quote
Hank Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 I wouldn't worry about the mason jars. Not only is the seal by vacuum, but the screw-on rings should keep things neat anyway. P.S.--I'm a veteran chip flier. Quite often nothing happens. When chips blow open, it's not always obvious what happened; with pork rinds, the scent is very apparent. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Posted July 2, 2014 I wouldn't worry about the mason jars. Not only is the seal by vacuum, but the screw-on rings should keep things neat anyway. P.S.--I'm a veteran chip flier. Quite often nothing happens. When chips blow open, it's not always obvious what happened; with pork rinds, the scent is very apparent. Actually the seal is the softened compound on the lip of the lid. As the contents shrink with cooling the lid dimples (tin cans) in confirming that the jar is sealed. SOP is to remove the screw on rings after the jar cool... the next day. The rings are more likely to break the seal than to protect it. And depending upon the contents, the rings can provide a rich target for bacteria, rust, etc. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Posted July 2, 2014 We always leave the rings on . . . The Bible (aka Ball Blue Book) says remove them. Hank, you're not one of those guys who takes off w/o flaps and lands LOP, are you? Quote
Marauder Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 The Bible (aka Ball Blue Book) says remove them. Hank, you're not one of those guys who takes off w/o flaps and lands LOP, are you? That picture brings back memories... My Mom was a big "canner" and as a kid, "canned" stuff was the norm in the winter. My parents were big into dandelion and elderberry wines too. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote
PMcClure Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 Finally something I am an expert at!! As a packaging engineer, pilot and canner, I think I can give you a meaningful answer. Most packaging is tested up to 10,000' (to simulate transportation). The vacuum level in the containers is probably running about 3-5 inches. A tin can can hold up to 2 bar of internal pressure before deforming. The mason jar should be good for up to 1 bar (14.7) psi. At 10,000 feet you have about 66% of 1 bar or 9.7 psi. So the pressures will be about equalized. You should have no problem. But don't open them or drop them at altitude to be safe. 2 Quote
Marauder Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 Finally something I am an expert at!! As a packaging engineer, pilot and canner, I think I can give you a meaningful answer. Most packaging is tested up to 10,000' (to simulate transportation). The vacuum level in the containers is probably running about 3-5 inches. A tin can can hold up to 2 bar of internal pressure before deforming. The mason jar should be good for up to 1 bar (14.7) psi. At 10,000 feet you have about 66% of 1 bar or 9.7 psi. So the pressures will be about equalized. You should have no problem. But don't open them or drop them at altitude to be safe. Finally someone an expert on the topic! The pressure was getting to us! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted July 2, 2014 Author Report Posted July 2, 2014 Finally someone an expert on the topic! The pressure was getting to us! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Oh, there are lots of certified experts on here... on every subject... it's just a little tough sorting out which ones are self certified. 1 Quote
PMcClure Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 Just make sure you do your canning LOP and use flaps on take off. Quote
aviatoreb Posted July 2, 2014 Report Posted July 2, 2014 Finally something I am an expert at!! As a packaging engineer, pilot and canner, I think I can give you a meaningful answer. Most packaging is tested up to 10,000' (to simulate transportation). The vacuum level in the containers is probably running about 3-5 inches. A tin can can hold up to 2 bar of internal pressure before deforming. The mason jar should be good for up to 1 bar (14.7) psi. At 10,000 feet you have about 66% of 1 bar or 9.7 psi. So the pressures will be about equalized. You should have no problem. But don't open them or drop them at altitude to be safe. What about Lobsters? Why don't lobsters explode at 10,000ft? They are built to survive 25' below the sea. Quote
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