Annual time

[bonal]

Day 1 for its annual and on a positive note there are 3 other beautiful Mooney's in for service. One of the things I like about doing the owner assist is I get to hang out in a shop full of Mooney's I think I might post some photos of the work. Any way hear is a question for all you mechanical types out there in Mooney land. All was going well but when we were inspecting controls it was found that the carburetor was not going to full throttle position on the butterfly actuator arm. We disconnected the cable to see if that was the problem but no. After removing the carb you could see that the butterfly was only opening to about 7/8 and would go no further. The plate was secured tight to the shaft and nothing could be seen that was hanging it up. It will most likely have to go in for repair. Any thoughts on what might be limiting its travel

[DaV8or]

I have no idea what might be wrong with it, but look at it this way. Whatever you spend on fixing this, you can consider a speed mod! I dread annuals because there always seems to be something. Seems like having an old airplane go a whole year without problems is too much to ask. Soon my plane will be in that same shop. $$$$

[Mooneymite]

That's an odd one.

 

I know there are a couple of set screws, but from your description, I presume it is "something else".

 

Maybe you could post a picture, or two and educate us all.

 

My carb is probably limited too.  I'm sure my C will do 300 mph if I can just get that darn carb adjusted!  

[Sabremech]

Hi bonal,

 Is this really a problem? If you're making static RPM and all the other numbers for this engine, then why fix something that isn't broken?

 Just a thought or two to think about before spending money and possibly no change in the end.

 

 David

[bonal]

Well it's on its way to Lycon for repair. Dan at LASAR thinks it's the internal linkage that connects to the accelerator pump and that it's jamming the travel. The folks at Lycon feel that it could prevent proper operation and could jam completely. Not something I want to take a chance on better to be safe and get it checked out. There is nothing visual that can be seen that is causing this and it's clearly not opening completely. I don't think I would be able to get it signed off for the annual the way it was so you bite the bullet and do the right thing.

[philiplane]

It's on the inspection checklist- check engine controls for full travel in both directions. You want it to idle correctly so you don't eat up runway upon landing, and you want it full open for takeoff to develop max power. That said, a problem with travel INSIDE the carb is highly unusual. Normally it's simply a misadjusted or slipped control cable. There is also more than one throttle lever arm available for the early carburetors. The arm holes are drilled at different lengths and can present a problem if someone puts a long arm where a short one was or vice versa. It will also not make full travel.

[bonal]

Actually even after the carb was removed there was clearly something keeping it from opening completely. The arm stops about an 8th inch from the boss on the housing (the stop) and the butterfly is not going to full open. Any way it is what it is when it comes back from repair I will let you know what was the cause if any are interested.

[carusoam]

There is something to be learned for everyone on something like this...

Hopefully, it will be a low cost lesson.

Good luck.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

As far as I can tell, my carb opens all the way. But a while back I was having starting trouble hot and cold. She turned over fast enough to taxi, thanks to my new Concord sealed battery, but little to no fire. So I put in new plugs. All was good for a half dozen flights, then same as before. Checked mags, everything normal, no change. At annual, we overhauled the carb [sent it somewhere in Maryland] because we couldn't smell fuel despite much cranking and pumping of the throttle. Worked well for a while, then same as before. Then went through the Shower of Sparks, even though we could hear and feel it buzzing. Now cold starts are 3 seconds, hot starts after a fuel stop are 5 seconds. Been that way for two years, I think we got it right.

 

Keep on keeping on, and fix whatever isn't right. I was almost stuck away from home twice during all of this . . .

[Sabremech]

Now reading that you weren't making full throttle movement to the external stop, changes my original thoughts. Good call on sending it out.

David

[bonal]

One of the moony's there had come in for an oil change and there was lots of metal in the oil this was some time ago and the last 2 days they were finishing the new engine install and yesterday they fired it up. I'm not sure if the owner is a member of our band of Mooniacs but if you are just to let you know it looks cherry and started right up and ran great. Point is you never know what will happen when you open them up. I had 3 squawks on mine including the carb and a loose terminal on the starter that had to be sent out for repair. Other than that all good much better than last year.

[DaV8or]

Point is you never know what will happen when you open them up. I had 3 squawks on mine including the carb and a loose terminal on the starter that had to be sent out for repair. Other than that all good much better than last year.

 

No kidding. Sometimes I feel like the annual is like roulette wheel. I hate the uncertainty. Every oil change too. My coping mechanism is that I have just resigned myself to expect metal in the filter at the next change. I have already run the what if scenarios and am braced for it. When the metal never shows, I am pleasantly surprised and relieved until the next time.

 

I do wonder though, if I were unfortunate enough to find metal in the filter at the next annual, does anyone know if it would be possible to get a ferry permit to fly it home? I would hate to do an engine swap there because it would cost me a fortune in labor costs. That is something I would feel pretty comfortable doing at home myself with the local IA sign off.

[jetdriven]

No kidding. Sometimes I feel like the annual is like roulette wheel. I hate the uncertainty. Every oil change too. My coping mechanism is that I have just resigned myself to expect metal in the filter at the next change. I have already run the what if scenarios and am braced for it. When the metal never shows, I am pleasantly surprised and relieved until the next time.

 

I do wonder though, if I were unfortunate enough to find metal in the filter at the next annual, does anyone know if it would be possible to get a ferry permit to fly it home? I would hate to do an engine swap there because it would cost me a fortune in labor costs. That is something I would feel pretty comfortable doing at home myself with the local IA sign off.

 

Good luck with a ferry permit. You'd be better off making a deal WRT airworthniess and fly the airplane directly home.  And that depends on the owner's knowledge, the A&P's opinion, and some guidance from available information.  I think a huge part of this is the owner.

 

Lycoming SI1492D is a good start. From the SI: http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/techpublications/serviceinstructions/SI%201492D%20%2803-20-2009%29/Piston%20Pin%20Plug%20Wear%20Inspection.pdf

8.Evidence of metal contamination found in the oil filter element or suction screen requires further examination to determine the cause. Below is a list of recommended actions based on the appearance and approximate quantity of particles found in the oil filter/suction screen.

Continue performing steps a. through d. until there is no further evidence of metal contamination in the oil filter element or suction screen. If at any time the amount of metal contamination equals or exceeds what is stated in steps e. through j. remove engine from service.

 

a.1 to 9 small (1/16 inch diameter of less) pieces of magnetic or nonmagnetic metal – change oil filter and clean suction screen, drain oil, and refill. Place aircraft back in service and check oil filter or screen at next scheduled oil change/oil filter replacement.

 

b. 10 to 20 small (1/16 inch diameter or less) pieces of shiny flake-like, nonmagnetic, or 10 or fewer short hair-like pieces of magnetic material– change oil filter and clean suction screen, drain oil, and refill. Place engine back in service and again check oil filter or suction screen after 25 hours of engine operation.

 

c.20 to 40 small pieces as in step b. – change oil filter and clean suction screen, drain oil, and refill. Place the aircraft back in service and check oil filter or suction screen after 10 hours of engine operation.

 

d. As in step b., but larger amount, such as 45-60 small pieces – change oil filter and clean suction screen, drain oil, and refill. Run engine on ground for 20-30 minutes. Inspect oil filter suction screen. If clean, fly aircraft for 1 to 2 hours and again inspect oil filter/suction screen. If clean, inspect oil filter/suction screen after 10 hours of engine operation.

 

NOTE In items e. through j. below, the engine must be removed from service until the source of the metal is determined and corrective maintenance has been accomplished.

 

e. Pieces of metal ranging in size of broken lead pencil point (1/16 inch diameter) or larger. Remove suction (sump) screen to check for pieces of metal that may have fallen into the sump. In any event, ground aircraft and conduct investigation. A mixture of magnetic and nonmagnetic material in this case often times means a valve or ring and piston failure. Removing bottom spark plugs usually reveals the offending cylinder.

 

f. Nonmagnetic plating averaging approximately 1/16 inch in diameter; may have copperish tint. Quantity found – 1/4 teaspoonful or more; ground aircraft and investigate.

 

g. Same as in step b. but may be slightly larger in size and minus copperishtint. On direct drive engines, propeller action may be impaired. Ground aircraft and investigate.

 

h. Nonmagnetic metal brass or copperish color. Resembles coarse sand in consistency. Quantity of 1/4 teaspoonful or more – ground aircraft and investigate.

 

i.Anytime metal is found in the amount of 1/2 teaspoonful or more, it is justification for engine removal. Ground aircraft and investigate.

----end----

 

Another thing to look at is the suction screen and the screen on the governor, as described here: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2010/May/1/Airframe-and-Powerplant-Engine-making-metal.aspx

 

 

 

 

In my case, we had a upward trend in iron, aluminum, and chromium in three successive oil samples from 33 to 66, to 99 PPM, normalized for 50 hours. Iron fines and flakes began to show up in the oil filter and I suspected cam/lifter failure.  After the 99 oil sample, we flew it 5 hours then took it to the shop, pulled two cylinders, and found 3 spalled lifters. The engine continued to operate normally. We also pulled the governor and the screen was half-blocked with 1/32" to 1/16" metal particles.A few larger ones as well.

 

Thing is you can usually see cam/lifter failure coming, we did over a period of 75 hours or so.  Increasing oil analysis counts and an increasing amount of ferrous metal in the filter. It is only obvious when washed into a can of mineral spirits and poured through a coffee filter.

 

So, arm yourself with knowledge and make a determination. Some places may want to hold your airplane hostage because they can make a fortune from an out of town, broken down owner. However, if you have a good shop who can interpret the findings without bias, you can fly the airplane home. If you reach an impasse, and you feel under SI1492D that the engine is airworthy, direct them to complete the oil change and any inspections performed, and give you a log sticker for the work performed. Wait until they close for the day and disappear with it.  Unless they see you get into the plane and fly it away then call the FSDO and get ahold of a sympathetic inspector, its just another dispute between a shop and an owner.

 

in closing, here is something similar that Mike Busch was able to do for an owner. But you can do it yourself if you know enough about the process: https://www.savvymx.com/index.php/turbo-210-trouble

[BigTex]

You could always change your oil prior to taking it in for its annual.

[MB65E]

That's true but the IA is still required to check the screens, the suction screen requires the oil to be drained. Unless you want to use the drained oil, I think you'd be going in circles. Most shops don't want to pull engines just to pull engines. I think by changing the oil IAW the SB JD meiontned gives a ton of leeway! If the owner knows it's making more metal than the SB states, please don't fly it, or try to pull one over on anyone.

-Matt

[bonal]

going well so far waiting for parts and report on carburator problem. its always a stressful time to do the annual but i like being able to do the owner assist. this is my second time with LASAR and I have learned so much about how every thing works on my Mooney.  For those non A&P if you can I would highly recommend doing an owner assist annual.

[Marauder]

I'm glad I am not the only one of going through the angst of an annual. Sort of like expectant fathers huh? Good news is my compressions are rock solid, no metal and the oil leaks look to be coming from an oil return line.

The fuel flow transducer has been intermittent for me and low and behold, the mechanic actually saw it fail in front of him while doing the post oil change run up. That has to be a first.

Scott -- I did not have the time to remove the rear seats before the annual but my mechanic told me that he pulls them every annual and will do so again this year. I'm hoping to provide a write-up for those looking to remove them.

I'm also having the infamous/famous AOA inidicator installed. Still up in the air about how best to install the indicator in the panel. Thanks Rip for the explanation in the other thread. Should help the process.

Sent using Tapatalk

[bonal]

So just to close out the issue. Lycon opened up the carb and it was as we suspected the linkage to the accelerator pump was catching. there assesment of the condition of the carb was everything needed to be serviced. cheaper to pull a fresh OH unit off the shelf not to mention a 1 day turn around. should have it back in service by weeks end. Had to drive down to moms for mothers day 3 hours in crappy Bay Area traffic. normally a 35 min flight and 15 mins from the airport on both ends cant wait to get back in the air.  I HATE ANNUALS BUT THEY MAKE FOR A BETTER SAFER AIRCRAFT

[Marauder]

Quick update on my plane. Mechanic pulled the rear seat and he said it is pristine, including the section under the seat which is not zinc chromated. My AOA is being installed and he said the install was pretty straightforward. I will post pictures when I get it back. He is mounting the indicator under the glare shield for now and when I redo my panel, will get it mounted in the panel.

Only waiting for a replacement fuel transducer.

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[bonal]

All done. Took it around the pattern for its test flight every thing checks out so far but will need longer flight to test all the systems. Nice to be back in the air again. Looking forward to seeing how the new carburetor and rebuilt air box works out in cruise.

[Marauder]

All done. Took it around the pattern for its test flight every thing checks out so far but will need longer flight to test all the systems. Nice to be back in the air again. Looking forward to seeing how the new carburetor and rebuilt air box works out in cruise.

Want to compare bills? Mine is still waiting for parts...

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[bonal]

they wont have the bill ready till Friday or Monday.  The OH carburetor will add about a grand and my sky tech starter got a completer OH but Dan said it did not increase the cost over the repair they were going to do on the terminal. that was sent out on the first day Monday and it was back all fixed on Friday nice work there in Texas.  Last years annual my first for this plane was brutal. this time much better. I added one mod. one of the other Moonies that was getting a new engine monitor installed had the landing light cover on it and it looked real nice and I knew that it was a LASAR mod so I asked how much and it was $59.00 I said fifty nine for an aircraft mod sign me up.

looks real cool and my AP said I'd gain 20mph in cruise.  just kidding also I now have a polished spinner thanks to Mooney Space guy in Florida.

[chrisk]

No kidding. Sometimes I feel like the annual is like roulette wheel. I hate the uncertainty.

As much as I don't like getting bad news, I'd much prefer discovering a problem on the ground. 

[bonal]

The description of the carb from Lycon it was in bad shape the fact that it decided to show it self at the start of the annual is very fortunate indeed. Also we checked out the #2 comm to see why it was not working and the radio is fine and this is funny cause it was there for all to see it had no antenna. DUHHH. the antenna that I thought was for com 2 is my ELT seems when they installed the GPS they put the GPS antenna in its place. so now I have a new task.  fun fun fun!

[Mooneymite]

 they put the GPS antenna in its place.

 

What?

 

Who did that?

 

Where did they do with the original comm antenna?

 

I'd like to hear "the rest of the story"!