Flying a J this weekend.

[kujo806]

If the weather holds up this weekend (and that is a big if this year), I am going to get some dual time in a M20J.  This will be my first flight in a Mooney.  What are the approach speeds I should use for landing?  I am most concerned about the landings .  Figure ~450lbs between me and my instructor in the front seats.  I am used to flying my arrow, so I expect to have more float in the Mooney.  I am guessing engine operation will be similar considering they are both IO-360s.  Any other things to be aware of?

[dfgreene61]

I had a turbo-arrow for years before buying my j. I didn't find landing in the j to be an issue at all. 85 on final, over the fence at 70, it sits right down without a problem. Spend some time on the ground getting used to the sight picture so you can better judge the flare. I don't flare as much in the j as compared to the arrow. Rotate right at 65 on takeoff. They like to go fast so just start slowing down way before you would in the arrow.

[dfgreene61]

Forgot a couple items...my numbers are in knots. At least with my plane, with no weight in back, take off trim feels quite nose heavy. So when you rotate at 65kts it will probably feel out of trim, get used to using that electric trim in the j, it requires more attention than the arrow which has lighter pitch forces. Hope that helps.

[carusoam]

DFG,

You can also edit your post and put the mph where you want them. Find the 'edit' button hiding at the bottom right...

Kujo,

Can you get access to checklists or POH in advance of the flight?

It would be helpful to read/study prior to the flight.

Knowing this stuff beforehand allows you to be more of a pilot than a passenger.

Of couse, if your intention is going for a educated ride in one of the world's fastest and efficient airframes, you've come to the right place!

Good luck with the weather this weekend,

-a-

[MooneyBob]

I was in the exact spot two weeks ago. I've got my M20J, I am still working on my insurance reqs and I was flying Arrow right before I bought Mooney. As I was preparing for my first flight I was reading a lot and everything possible about Mooney. It looked like the landing is a huge issue and you need 10,000' runway to land it.

So I took off with my instructor and first we practiced some basic stuff and how to slow this ridiculously fast plane down. Very first landing was around 100kts on downwind, 90 on base, 80 kts on final and 75kts over the thresh hold. I used decent amount of trim to relieve pressure on the yoke. It gives me more sensitivity on the flare.

I start my flare pretty low as the plane is lower than Arrow. I look almost at the end of the runway and try to fly the plane all the way to the end. It is going down smoothly as it is loosing speed. I pull the nose up right before touch down and hold it up as long as I can. No excessive floating registered. I am 6' and the Mooney is a perfect fit for my body and legs. I have very nice view right over the cowling.

I have exited to a taxiway after 2000' on the runway.

After more landings and practicing I am around 68 - 70 kts over the fence and every landing looks like a short field. I use only 15 flaps. This applies to no wind / light wind conditions. With more wind and gusting I wouldn't rush to the runway.

I have bounced once, not even too much but I didn't take any chances and went around right away.

[kujo806]

Thanks for all the tips.  I am going to try to get ahold of a POH before the flight.  I always try to do that before I fly something different.  I want to get a feel for different planes as I get more flying experience to see what I want to own.  The arrow partnership is convenient right now with the lack of time I have to fly, but I seem to be looking at debonairs and mooneys quite a bit.  I was excited to see that my local FBO started offering a leaseback M20J for rent late last fall.  Weather and other obstacles have kept me from taking a ride until now (hopefully).  I got to fly a debonair last summer, and that was nice.  I am anxious to see what the Mooney feels like.  I am most concerned about the landings as I have heard horror stories about porpoising and hitting props.  The arrow is pretty simple to land.  Bring back power, check speed, drops like a rock to the runway, flare and its a non issue.  I greese the thing most of the time.  It is good to hear about MooneyBob's transition from the Arrow.  I will try to keep an eye on the trim.  Takeoff trim in the arrow is pretty close to landing trim, so it is easy to get complacent.  Thanks again.

[carusoam]

Kujo,

Two things of interest...

(1) Notice how far back Mooney Bob's procedure starts?

(2) Landing trim is much different than T/O trim in Mooneys...

What's your preference set? Speed and efficiency (Mooney) or excessive comfort and brand recognition (others)?

You're going to enjoy the flight!

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

DFG  looks like Bretts plane if so you have a good one...good luck.

 

Dan

[KSMooniac]

If you don't have people in the back seats or a lot of baggage, then set a bit more nose-up trim on takeoff than the indicator calls for.

 

100 MPH on downwind, 90 MPH on base and 80 MPH on final are easy numbers to remember for the transitioning J pilot.  Full flaps make it easier to land too, and should be used for pretty much every landing unless you get into a very bad crosswind and you need extra speed for more rudder effectiveness.  Lower landing speeds are easier on the entire plane, so don't get in a habit of landing fast and without full flaps.

 

Prior to doing any landings, you should go out and practice a lot of slow flight in the landing configuration to convince yourself that a Mooney *can* fly slowly, and in complete control.  

 

Enjoy!

[Glenn]

If you don't have people in the back seats or a lot of baggage, then set a bit more nose-up trim on takeoff than the indicator calls for.

 

100 MPH on downwind, 90 MPH on base and 80 MPH on final are easy numbers to remember for the transitioning J pilot.  Full flaps make it easier to land too, and should be used for pretty much every landing unless you get into a very bad crosswind and you need extra speed for more rudder effectiveness.  Lower landing speeds are easier on the entire plane, so don't get in a habit of landing fast and without full flaps.

 

Prior to doing any landings, you should go out and practice a lot of slow flight in the landing configuration to convince yourself that a Mooney *can* fly slowly, and in complete control.  

 

Enjoy!

This seems exactly right to me.  The only thing I would add, is for the flare, just try to skim it on, flying all the way through the roll-out.  

 

Prior to this go out and slow-fly the plane. Do stalls, both clean and in landing configuration.  Watch the ball.  You might even want to experiment with what it feels like when you don't.

[Marauder]

Thanks for all the tips.  I am going to try to get ahold of a POH before the flight.  I always try to do that before I fly something different.  I want to get a feel for different planes as I get more flying experience to see what I want to own.  The arrow partnership is convenient right now with the lack of time I have to fly, but I seem to be looking at debonairs and mooneys quite a bit.  I was excited to see that my local FBO started offering a leaseback M20J for rent late last fall.  Weather and other obstacles have kept me from taking a ride until now (hopefully).  I got to fly a debonair last summer, and that was nice.  I am anxious to see what the Mooney feels like.  I am most concerned about the landings as I have heard horror stories about porpoising and hitting props.  The arrow is pretty simple to land.  Bring back power, check speed, drops like a rock to the runway, flare and its a non issue.  I greese the thing most of the time.  It is good to hear about MooneyBob's transition from the Arrow.  I will try to keep an eye on the trim.  Takeoff trim in the arrow is pretty close to landing trim, so it is easy to get complacent.  Thanks again.

 

The key with Mooney landings is speed control. The porpoising issue is directly linked to those who try to put the nose down while still carrying too much speed. I would venture to say all Mooney pilots have gotten themselves in that situation at least once. The key is if you are fast, hold it off and resist the urge to plant the nosewheel. If you find that you begin a porpoise, the best action is to add full power and go around. I was told by my Mooney mentor that if you let it porpoise 3 times, the next one will be a prop and engine rebuild.

[bnicolette]

Kujo,

Send me your email and I will send you a POH for the J

[dfgreene61]

Thanks Dan. Yes it is Brett's 62G, she's a beauty. Just wish I had more time to fly!!

[Seth]

Have fun this weekend!

 

Takeoff flaps - Set your flaps to 15 degrees or half for takeoff.  Double check the configuration:  Fully deflect your ailerons once the TO flaps are set and the down aileron should be flush with the flaps.  It's amazing how that small difference can cause the airplane to really leap off the runway.

 

Takeoff trim - just as mentioned - a bit above (higher/nose up) than the indicator reads if it's the two of you in the front and that's it.

 

Landing - just like is mentioned on here Downwind 100, base 90, final 80, over the fence 75.  1/2 flaps when parallel the numbers, full flaps on base.

 

GUMPS Downwind/Base/Final - Green Light Over the Fence - visibly check the floor indicator to ensure the gear is down during the GUMPS checks.  that's four times making sure your gear is down.

 

-Seth

[pirate]

C O O L !! Just think, your test ride is going to cost you a whole lot of money :)

Your going to have a blast.......

[mmgreve]

I was really struggling on the first couple of landings when transitioning from an Arrow to a Mooney, until I realised that I was way to heavy footed !

 

In the Arrow I could plant my entire foot on the pedal, but when doing so in the Mooney, I would be landing breaks slightly on, which was....interesting.  Use the tip of your toes when landing.

[Hank]

One other difference is that you can go to idle in the Mooney with no appreciable difference in glide angle. It's always interesting taking Piper pilots on their first Mooney flight. As my CFI first taught me, pull throttle when you have the runway made, short final if its clear or once I'm over the trees at home.

[kujo806]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for these great responses.  I have always felt that the Mooneyspace forums are extremely helpful and friendly.  I am looking forward to getting out there this weekend.  I will definitely plan to do a lot of slow flight and stall work before attempting landings.

[bnicolette]

Kujo did you get the email with the POH? Never heard back from you.

[Bob - S50]

I'm pretty new to the Mooney ('78J) but one thing I noticed is that if I pull the power relatively quickly I get a 'sinker'.  I suspect that is because of the reduced airflow across the inner portion of the wing resulting in a loss of lift.  Don't know if that is unique to the Mooney or not (I'm guessing it affects all low wing planes).  If I wait until the last minute to do that, the sinker comes when I'm pretty close to the ground.   My solution has been to start pulling the power earlier but pull it slowly.  That results in a more gradual loss of lift and gives me more time to react while I'm still higher above the runway.

 

Have fun,

 

Bob

[kujo806]

As luck would have it, I was thwarted again. Oil was spewing out of the plane when we got there. It was all over the gear door and cowl flaps dripping on to the ground. My instructor said the drain plug had been leaking, but they were going to fix it. Apparently it hadn't been. So scrubbed today, but I will get out there when it gets fixed.