Am I crazy?

[Shadrach]

Setting all of the other issues aside. Your geographical location makes this an even more expensive decision. Care and feeding of anything in the bay area is more expensive by a considerable margin than most other parts of the country. It's going to add greatly to the cost of ownership. Your choices are HAF, SQL, HWD, PAO, DVO, 069, CCR. I doubt CA35 would allow a student to operate there. What is hangar rent going to cost?

[Conrad]

Yeah I live in the city. I've learned to add at least 40% to the cost of everything as stated by people living elsewhere... I'm eyeing KOAK. Just got in touch with an instructor who teaches out of that airport and he's willing to sit down with me and have a chat about what I'm looking to do. I've been able to find out next to nothing about hangarage, but maybe he will have some answers about that and other costs.

[Shadrach]

Yeah I live in the city. I've learned to add at least 40% to the cost of everything as stated by people living elsewhere... I'm eyeing KOAK. Just got in touch with an instructor who teaches out of that airport and he's willing to sit down with me and have a chat about what I'm looking to do. I've been able to find out next to nothing about hangarage, but maybe he will have some answers about that and other costs.

I lived on the corner of Broadway and Mason from '03-'05 and on 17th and Kirkham out in the Sunset prior to that. The thing about the bay, is that everything is more of a PIA and almost twice as expensive...I bet hangars at OAK run ~$500 or more a month. Maybe OAK is a good place to start training. However, I know of an instructor that teaches at Hayward (http://www.california-airways.com/OurInstructors.html) named Karim Fahmee; I believe he owns and keeps a Turbo Arrow at OAK. He has plenty of Mooney time. While I've never met him in person, I've had many discussions with him over the web; he's solid. I'd definitely call him. He may or may not remember me by first name or my screen name.

[Mooneymite]

 

Have I lost my marbles? I would love to hear (or be pointed to) the stories of anyone who has done something like this.

 

EDIT: With all your valuable feedback and information about some of your experiences, I think I've made my decision, which is NOT to attempt to do this. I am still considering the idea of buying a less formidable aircraft in which to learn, though not because I think it will be a cheaper of faster way to get my license. Still excited!

 

Whenever this discussion comes up, someone usually points out that the Navy starts newbies out in fairly complex aircraft.  Since the Navy is interested in the most efficient way to go from zero to "fleet ready", there must be something to it.

 

However, it may not be the cheapest way to go unless you have Navair's budget.   

 

http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.displayPlatform&key=1F548950-1B70-4720-B526-C81619FA087A

 

 

.

[Conrad]

Classic Catch 22. Do you pay so much to keep your plane conveniently close that you wish you didn't own one, or do you keep it somewhere where during rush hour and on weekends you practically need a plane to get to your plane...

 

Fortunately I can get to Hayward from downtown in a 30 minute BART ride, so that might not be bad. I'll definitely ping Karim. Thanks!!

[Hank]

Are you crazy? Most likely, but so are we. Remember what is said about the sane man in the kingdom of crazies . . . FWIW, I bought my Mooney five weeks after my PPL checkride, spent 15 hours with an approved CFII, then attended a MAPA PPP four weeks later. Took almost 3 more years to decide it was time and obtain my Instrument rating, though. Made many VFR trips in the meantime, though, and got my wife hooked on the speed and convenience. :-)

[201er]

The thing about the bay, is that everything is more of a PIA and almost twice as expensive...I bet hangars at OAK run ~$500 or more a month. 

Wow! $500 a month for a hangar!? What a bargain compared to NY area!

[Conrad]

Wow! $500 a month for a hangar!? What a bargain compared to NY area!

SF is mostly as expensive as New York, but there's less sprawl of expense. You can escape a bit of it by going across the bay to the north or east.

[N601RX]

Whenever this discussion comes up, someone usually points out that the Navy starts newbies out in fairly complex aircraft. Since the Navy is interested in the most efficient way to go from zero to "fleet ready", there must be something to it.

However, it may not be the cheapest way to go unless you have Navair's budget.

http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.displayPlatform&key=1F548950-1B70-4720-B526-C81619FA087A

.

I thought the navy was starting students out in these also until I was talking to a flight instructor at a private school in Pensacola, fl. He told me the navy is now sending the students to the school he teaches at for 10-12 hrs of dual in a 172, up to the point they are ready to solo. If they make it past this weed out process then they move into the T6. He said they wanted them to know basic aircraft control and the basics of how to flare and land. The school stays very busy doing this. I'm guessing 12 hrs in a 172 cost about the same as 30 minutes in the T6.

[triple8s]

Well............several ways of looking at this. First off Mooneys aren't forgiving however, this can be said, the short body Mooneys will take a LOT more punishment than most people think, but, there is one thing that they don't put up with and that is for the nose wheel to touch first on landing. So this being said, if a person was going to take flight instruction in a Mooney I'd say a cheap well used but mechanically sound C model would work and could be purchased reasonably. I'd find one with minimal radios dual nav/com and if the tanks were a little leaky, maybe crappy paint what would it matter. Maybe get one that had a little history but repaired properly. The key to this working wold be a good instructor that has Mooney experience. I know everybody talks about how blah blah blah instructor that they know or use is the best they ever met I had said that about a few I had used, but you are going to have to get a darn good one. Just holding a CFI or Double I doesn't mean anything other than they have a ticket. It's like being in school some have a degree in education and some people know how to "teach". You"ll need a good instructor. You get your PPL, maybe trade planes or do some remodeling (radio upgrade or paint or interior or maybe tank resealed ) whatever maybe even trade up. Thing is a tired C model with a O-360 lycoming and manual gear is pretty darn durable and cheap to operate. Yes it will be more to think about when beginning but that is where the good instructor comes into play.

If you don't listen to anything I've written listen to this.......no matter what brand you get even if you rent, get a good instructor, I started flying in 1996 and have had 5 instructors and I didn't know what a good instructor was I didn't realize it is like in school, some people have a gift to teach. Find an instructor who knows their stuff and has the gift to teach this will be key.

[Conrad]

I have decided to start in on the process in earnest, and am attacking it from all sides. The insurance side has revealed that the insurance companies too are interested in the quality of flight instructor who would be training me (in any plane). Financing seems to demand knowledge of which plane I want to purchase. From all this, I have deduced that the first logical step is indeed to find a CFI. Hopefully sitting down and having a chat with these people about the situation I'm in will give me some insight into their experience as well as whether they're someone with whom I think I'd learn well.

 

As far as explicitly hunting down a 'tired' plane I'm not so sure. Seems to me like everyone says it's a buyers market and there's no point taking a fixer upper when you can find a plane in good shape that won't need much work.

[Matt Michael]

If you decide you want to buy a plane ping me. I'm closing in on a Mooney and hopefully will be looking for a home for my very nice well cared for C150.

Yes, it's a buyers market but its more of a buyers beware market. See the Junk thread in General Mooney discussion. My motto has become "if its for sale I don't want it!" Better to find something not actively being "sold" is my experience. No substitute for word of mouth and referral. That goes for instructors too. Especially for instructors!

[Marauder]

If you decide you want to buy a plane ping me. I'm closing in on a Mooney and hopefully will be looking for a home for my very nice well cared for C150. Yes, it's a buyers market but its more of a buyers beware market. See the Junk thread in General Mooney discussion. My motto has become "if its for sale I don't want it!" Better to find something not actively being "sold" is my experience. No substitute for word of mouth and referral. That goes for instructors too. Especially for instructors!

So, let me do some tire kicking. I know someone who is considering a 150 purchase to do his flight training in. What ballpark price we talking about?

[Matt Michael]

Starting at $24k. 700smoh, basic no GPS IFR, all logs, hangared, auto fuel STC, not your typical beater 150.

[201er]

I don't know the C-150 market at all and that is probably a very fair price, but I do know the vintage Mooney market pretty well and a comparable C model would only be 10K or so more right now. Makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Jim you're right. But on the other hand a Mooney's no trainer. That's why I vote to rent for training and then buy Mooney for owning. Plus it's more fun that way, you get to fly in more different kinds of airplanes and build more experience. I've flown Cub, Aerobat, Commuter, Skyhawk, Cherokee, and Arrow prior to Mooney and all those experiences combined helped me do a better job flying my Mooney. Plus it was their tires/struts that took the abuse and not mine.

[fantom]

Agreed completely, Mike. I, too, have owned and flown a wide variety of GA aircraft. I just don't understand the relative market values.

 

That's because you believe the market is logical. Nothing in GA aviation is logical, except the use of TO flaps!

[Matt Michael]

Comparable C model? I don't know. The 6 or so Mooneys I've seen in the last few months in the $23-$40K price range were pretty rough. They were either projects or bad risks. Personally, I believe one could safely and successfully train in a Mooney. But, factoring in operating costs and maintenance costs along with inarguably easier training and lower insurance makes something like a 150 very attractive.

[canuckpilot]

Hey Rad,

 

I'm in the bay area (Oakland).  Currently based at KHWD (Hayward), but I've been based at Oakland (KOAK) and NYC area  at (KFRG).  Hanger rents here are in the $300/month range, but the waiting lists are years long...  I rented Pipers for my PPL, but bought a two-seater Grumman soon after getting my ticket.  In hindsight, learning in that Grumman would have saved me some money.  Mooneys aren't designed for primary training - Pipers, Cessnas or Grummans are much better suited to that task (my opinion).

 

Most folk on this list know more than I - but feel free to ping me if you wanna chat and/or visit the airport.  I could tell you what my various costs have been.

 

Cheers,

 

-matty.

[PMcClure]

I rented for the first 100 hours then bought into a partnership for a Mooney F model and got my IFR. I think it may be cheaper to buy a 152 or similar and sell after PPL. But a lot depends on what you have available in your area. I like the idea of learning IFR in the plane you are going to fly IFR.

[BigTex]

I rented for the first 100 hours then bought into a partnership for a Mooney F model and got my IFR. I think it may be cheaper to buy a 152 or similar and sell after PPL. But a lot depends on what you have available in your area. I like the idea of learning IFR in the plane you are going to fly IFR.

I'm currently working on my IR and prior to purchasing my Mooney I was renting a Cherokee 180.  It's a great trainer and everything was going well until I switched over to the Mooney.  Then it was like I was never under the hood!  It's amazing how the level of complexity goes up when transitioning from a trainer to a faster complex aircraft.  It would of been much easier to complete my IFR training in the 180 but there's something to be said for training in the plane you'll be flying.  Even though it's going much slower, when done I'm sure I'll be a much better pilot using my plane.

[Matt Michael]

My C150 is 20 mph faster than my first airplane. (I flew it to DC and back from Central Iowa!) But after a couple years of speeding around even the Cessna became too slow. It took one 4 hour trip in a Mooney to ruin me completely. Must have now. Still, the Cessna was a great learning machine not only for basic flying but for long cross countries too. I regularly did 300 mile legs. The slower speed gave me time to figure things out and the ability to drop it in anywhere (including unimproved) in all kinds of winds was great experience. So was planning and flying to minimize headwinds and maximize tailwinds. Burning mostly auto fuel saved me a bundle over 200 hrs. Took a lot of fun trips for about the cost of driving in half the drive time.

[Matt Michael]

Damn you Mooney. Damn you! LOL

Actually, my first love is gliders. There is nothing to compare with flying a couple hundred miles or climbing at 1500 fpm powered by the atmosphere and your wits. But it's not particularly good transportation.

[201er]

Gliders. I have always wanted to do that! Perhaps some day.

Just pull the mixture out

[pinerunner]

Rad have you started flying yet? Get thee to the airport! Being stuck on the ground will make you crazy!

[bonal]

4 years ago I bought my 66 C150 prior to starting my lessons. For sure get your medical done first at 50 years old I am in good health but if I had failed I would have an aircraft that I could never fly. I think for me owning the plane was like a commitment to completing the training. I think if you rent it's real easy to walk away. Since you live in SF I would go north and check out Gnoss Field in Novato as a base it's close to the city and there are lots of airports to the north. Santa Rosa is a great place to fly around its class D not to busy but big enough to challenge you.

A good C172 will cost around 40k and a low time 150 around 20k. My first instructor was a retired Air Force instructor and he was all about stick and rudder. The 150 was designed to teach those skills his comment was its the most demanding yet forgiving aircraft.

Not to mention fun. All the comments on cost insurance and other owner issues are dead on and now that I own a mooney I can only say my choice for the 150 was a good one.

One more point. There are advantages to flying slow. Building time is most important. Fuel cost is no joke and a slower aircraft allows you to stay closer to your practice area for longer duration .

Stay the course. I'm glad I did. Flying has been the most rewarding experience for me.