Am I crazy?

[Conrad]

Alright, I'm back. I've read everything all of you have to say, and it has been super helpful! It seems my answers are:

 

Yes: I am crazy. I have the Mooney bug.

No: It is not very feasible to to earn a PPL in a Mooney. There are real risks, probable bumps, and lots of insurance costs.

No (yes?): It is not necessarily silly to learn in a plane you own, especially if it can take some bumps. I think my new and revised plan is basically the same, but start off with something a bit more manageable both on approach and in terms of cost. There's a cute looking Luscombe over on controller for 25k. Sure the license may be a bit slower if it spends time grounded, but if the license takes longer at least it's still flying time in my plane.

 

@JediNein: I am in SF proper, and though SJ isn't terribly far it's still a ways. I would still be interested to get the name of, and perhaps even talk to, the CFI you mention!

 

Thanks so much all!

[Shadrach]

I think a Mooney is sub-optimal for training. Much of my real learning has occurred in the absence of an instructor. I fly better one, I focus more when I'm sans instructor. I have had most of my "Ah ha" moments sans instructor. Instructors are ther to save you from yourself and give guidance while you learn how to fly. It's going to take 2 times as long to complete each phase of training so be sure to include the extra instruction cost into your training cost calculation. I soloed in ~11hrs and finished my check ride with 41.x hours. If I'd had to do it in a Mooney it would have taken a lot more time and a lot more money.

What's insurance going to cost for Solo?

[yvesg]

I think a Mooney is sub-optimal for training. Much of my real learning has occurred in the absence of an instructor. I fly better one, I focus more when I'm sans instructor. I have had most of my "Ah ha" moments sans instructor. Instructors are ther to save you from yourself and give guidance while you learn how to fly. It's going to take 2 times as long to complete each phase of training so be sure to include the extra instruction cost into your training cost calculation. I soloed in ~11yrs and finished my check ride with 41.x hours. If I'd had to do it in a Mooney it would have taken a lot more time and a lot more money.

What's insurance going to cost for Solo?

11 years really?

[M20F-1968]

I would encourage you to take a realistic and goal oriented approach.  Your goal now is to learn to fly.  That is best accomplished with you being focused on that task, not servicing and performing maintenance on your own airplane.  A Mooney is not a plane you want to fly when you do not yet have the skills to fly by the numbers and with precision.  It takes time to gain that experience and control over the airplane.  A Cessna 172 is forgiving of student's mistakes.  A Mooney is not.   You should get your initial training in a rented plane, and advance to various aircraft as you progress.  I learned in Pipers and Cessnas and got my private license in about 40 hours.  Starting about 60 hours, I began my instrument training (dual until I had the required hours for IFR check ride)  in a Grumman Tiger.  That was actually a very good experience if you wish to later buy a Mooney since it is fixed gear and neither high performance nor complex and has a fixed pitch prop, but it is fairly sensitive and somewhat slippery in the air and is a floater which the Mooney is as well.  These were all good characteristics in that it was less forgiving than the C and P varieties, but not complex.  It allowed me to advance in my abilities to control the plane, without the jump to a Mooney or Bonanza.

 

You do not want to bang around in a Mooney as a student pilot, as you may get into trouble.  Let alone, bang around in YOUR Mooney which will cost you money if you do get into trouble (prop strike, etc...).  If you must buy, buy a trainer that will hold its value, then sell it when you are done with it.  Just don't buy a dog that you will have to put a bunch of money into as you will not get it back.

 

My opinion,

John Breda

[M20FTraveler]

@M20FTraveler: How was the insurance situation for you buying without a private license? Or will you not get insurance/fly the plane until you get your certificate?

My premium increased about 70% when I asked to get a premium based on being a student versus having my PPL.  I have an open pilot provision that has specific qualification requirements about who may fly the plane.  Fortunately, my "old" instructor has over 3,000 hours logged - about 100 in an M20, so he meets the requirements established by the insurance company.  We had a great three hour ferry flight home yesterday, but I had to fly right seat! 

 

I've done all my training in a 172.  I, too, looked for a place to learn in a Mooney, but couldn't find one.  The examiner with whom I'm scheduled to take my checkride, works at a college in Killeen, TX.  They have three M20J's in their training fleet.  It's too far from where I live, however.

[larryb]

My vote is to rent a plane till you get your ppl.

 

Owning an airplane is not about saving money. It costs more than renting. In CA, you will pay sales tax on your used plane, 8% or so, lost right up front. There is no reason to own a trainer. We own a plane for the following reasons:

 

1)  It's always there for us.

2)  You can equip and maintain it just the way you want.

3)  You can take it on trips that you can't rent a plane for.

 

If you rent, you have access to a whole fleet of similar planes. If one has a mechanical problem, you just report it and take out a different one next time. Leave the maintenance to the staff. You have no commitment, at the end of a lesson your credit card is charged and you walk away. And, it'll cost you less in the long run.

[Mooneymite]

 

Have I lost my marbles? I would love to hear (or be pointed to) the stories of anyone who has done something like this.

 

 

No.  You are not crazy.

 

Buying a plane to learn in isn't all that unusual.  I know several people who did exactly that.  However, not all student pilots are created equal.  If I have a suggestion, it would be to find out what your instructor thinks.  If he thinks you have innate, natural ability as a pilot, will learn quickly and not be over-whelmed by the features of a Mooney, then let him make the recommendation.  Otherwise, you're chosing a tougher route.

 

I would agree with those that point out the disadvantage of making student-type mistakes in your own plane.

 

The advantage is you won't have to transition to a Mooney later,.

[scottfromiowa]

How many "hours" in a "year"

[rbridges]

I wouldn't wanna own the aircraft I trained in!

 

 

good point.  I was not very kind to that 172.  If I trained in my mooney, there would be landing gear biscuit remnants all over the runway.

[Hank]

good point.  I was not very kind to that 172.  If I trained in my mooney, there would be landing gear biscuit remnants all over the runway.

OUCH!! I'm replacing mine, would you like a souvenir? :-)

[DAVIDWH]

Not sure if this is a good idea or not. Could be.

 

I got married before I had any idea what I was doing.

 

Didn't work out for me. (Very expensive)

 

Learning is a process, you just need to be aware that you will need to pay for it.

 

Best of luck with your new venture.

[M20FTraveler]

Nice!  Post some pictures.

I haven't taken many, but here are a couple.  One is when we were about to head home.  The other, when I experienced my first fill up.  Ouch!

[DrBill]

I agree with your decision to purchase an aircraft and then learn in it. Insurance will NOT be cheap but if you plan on an accelerated Private Pilot program (say 8 weeks or less = 6 hrs a week minimum). then it is the cheapest way to go. Get a beginner aircraft you like (piper, cessna, etc) and you'll easily find an instructor with over 100 hrs in type (usual insurance requirement) to teach you. Then after you get a few hundred hours under your belt and in your log then upgrade to your dream Mooney. I got my license in 7 weeks calendar time from 0 hours and it was a hoot.

[prifly]

have to nix the luscombe too. taildragger (finding instructor) ,(insurance issues,) no elecrical sys,(hand proping, no radio)

[Conrad]

@prifly: Woof, it has electrical and radios. All metal. No hand propping. Basically a taildragger Cessna. Insurance/instructor problems... unknown...  http://jacksaircraft.com/aircrafts/index.php/featured-aircrafts/121

[carusoam]

Tail draggers add unnecessary complexity. That's why the C150, piper tripacer and others went with the nose wheel for trainers.

Most people are unable to reliably add the extra complexity while learning to fly. Times have changed.

Then again if you are dedicated to your sport, have time and resources, try it. Rent the plane with instructor. Then report how you like it.

Are you super human?

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

Tail draggers add unnecessary complexity.

I disagree. A lot of the old taildraggers like a J3 Piper cub are extremely simple. Take away the panel, gadgets, speed, and equipment and all you're left with is a wing to fly. I'm not saying it is EASIER to fly than a C150 but it certainly is less complex. But the learning you get flying one of those things sticks for life. You really learn to FLY the plane.

Actually I'd recommend starting in Glider and getting Private Pilot Glider before even beginning airplane training in a J3 Cub. Really learn to fly before setting foot in a Mooney and then you can make the most out of it.

 

Another reason not to buy an airplane prior to getting your rating is the fact that like half of the people who start flight training quit before they even make the checkride (or just after... like they met their bucket list goal and then move on). It's better to have an uncommitted rental to learn in until you are certain that you want to own long term.

[pinerunner]

I disagree. A lot of the old taildraggers like a J3 Piper cub are extremely simple. Take away the panel, gadgets, speed, and equipment and all you're left with is a wing to fly. I'm not saying it is EASIER to fly than a C150 but it certainly is less complex. But the learning you get flying one of those things sticks for life. You really learn to FLY the plane.

Actually I'd recommend starting in Glider and getting Private Pilot Glider before even beginning airplane training in a J3 Cub. Really learn to fly before setting foot in a Mooney and then you can make the most out of it.

 

Another reason not to buy an airplane prior to getting your rating is the fact that like half of the people who start flight training quit before they even make the checkride (or just after... like they met their bucket list goal and then move on). It's better to have an uncommitted rental to learn in until you are certain that you want to own long term.

I have to agree with this. I soloed a J3 back in 75. I had a special reason since we had found the same plane me dad had first owned and soloed and they were giving lessons in it. It was a forgiving plane to fly. I did finish off my PPL in 150's and 172's since I needed the radios in the end.

[jetdriven]

Students used to solo in 5 hours in cubs back in the day. There was only a needle ball, and airspeed.  I wonder what it takes to solo a new doctor in a Cirrus these days?

[Shadrach]

11 years really?

 I'm slow...

 

Edited...

[Shadrach]

Cubs are forgiving as are chiefs and champs. Back in the heyday of conventional gear aircraft, there was a lot less to learn in the way of regs and systems knowledge; just NORDO aircraft with an ASI needle and ball. A larger portion of the curriculum fucused on just flying the plane. Tail draggers are not the bear that they're made out to be. Can they bite you, yes, but I'd wager that in a calm or headwind scenario that most of the folks on this board could land one without bending it...as long as you could somehow hide from them the fact they were fling a tail dragger. They land just like any other plane... For me at least, I had a difficult time transitioning to a Decathlon (3hrs to sign off) because I was so convinced that it should be hard... that and my limited experience in an old oleo strut geared Champ left me with some bad habits that did not work well with spring steel. All that being said if I had not had to unlearn what I thought I knew from both my experience and the years of folks telling me how hard it is, the transition probably would have been a lot faster.

[pinerunner]

But seriously, I'd find the instructor or FBO I like best and rent their plane(s) then start talking to them about your having the Mooney bug after you've soloed. They'll probably talk you into finishing your private.  I recall one member talking about getting his wife her private in their Mooney. It was pointed out that many instructors would be leery of starting at new student off in a plane where the right side has no brake control. The insurance companies SHOULD charge a lot for a low time student pilot in such a plane.

 

Dave

[IndyTim]

Knowing what I know now, or more to the point, knowing more about what I DID NOT know when I first started flying, I would not buy an airplane to train in.

A lot of guys over on the the Beechtalk forum say "buy your last airplane first" and they have a point: once you acquire a plane you're going to put a lot of money into it, getting it right, upgrading, etc. But if you bought it as a stepping stone, then you'll be out a bunch of money on the transaction. So my strategy was to train, and buy what I meant to keep.

I looked in a lot of the wrong directions before I got to that point, and I worked very hard at learning everything I could learn. There are very few excellent planes sitting around on trade-a-plane or barnstormers: the excellent ones get snapped up, often in private deals. Usually, they're still for sale for a reason, and the next owner gets to absorb the squawks.

I didn't understand any of this when I started looking, although it's obvious in hindsight. I also had no clue what kind of plane I actually needed. I seriously looked at RV-7s and I seriously looked at Barons. Seriously. And everything in between.

If you have money to burn, and you can consider your first plane a potentially "throwaway purchase" or something close to that, then go for it. But if your goal is to make a savvy decision, I think it's best to rent for training, let someone else absorb the somewhat unpredictable and usually expensive costs of maintenance, and not only get some flying skill but also learn about aircraft first-hand.

If you've in the Bay Area, you're surely close to at least one flying club. That can ultimately be a good way to get exposure to a number of aircraft, while possibly learning from the more experienced other members. My .02 FWIW

[carusoam]

The piper cub as mentioned...

My friend started his training but was challenged by the transitions on take off. It was bothersome enough he switched to a 172 and joined a flying club at KMMU to finish.

One person's experience...

Best regards,

-a-

[BigTex]

I received my PPL in a Piper Warrior but I didn't learn how to fly until I received my tailwheel endorsement in a Champ.