G1000 WAAS for legacy Ovation GX, Bravo GX

[ghovey]

Does anyone know the real story about why Garmin or Mooney (and specifically which company) requires the 150+ Mooneys with G1000 and STec autopilots to convert to the Garmin G700 autopilot before allowing a WAAS upgrade? This is probably a $50,000+problem for what should be a $5,000 problem max. (I have heard actual numbers as high as $70k).

STec's 55x captures WAAS from 530 and 430.

[Danb]

I wish I knew. Hopefully the new a Mooney will stc the plane with waas and the stec. Also pissed

[Txbyker]

I knowingly purchased an O 2GX this summer without WAAS and felt my deal was priced appropriately.  Doug "showmethemooney" on this board is well versed in the upgrade having done it this summer at Arapohoe.  From what I can ascertain Mooney, Beech, Cessna have lots of G1000/STEC combos not WAAS certified so the number is probably much higher.  The choosen platform for certification at the time was to use the Garmin GFC700 with G1000 but that combo did not certify/ship till 2007/08.  G1000 was out in the market so lots of planes were built with STEC 55X which never received certification.  The factory will sell you a non VNAV WAAS upgrade for ~$28K and the VNAV WAAS for ~$35K.  Not sure if this has ADSB in and out capability.  You also have to pay an avionics shop to install after getting the equipment from Garmin.  This is a high price but I am sure Garmin/Mooney development royalties are amortized into this.  I am hoping for new attention to this with the new factory backing.  This is what I believe so anyone please add or correct me if you have better info.

 

Russ

[Marauder]

Ironically I was talking to my avionics shop yesterday and this topic came up when we were discussing upgrade paths -- and how some owners are getting screwed. According to my shop, the prices and comment Txbyker mentions are correct. There is a royalty thing going on and everyone gets a piece of it. He said that the upgrade is essentially upgrading the GPS behind the G1000. He mentioned that it was nothing more than upgrading the 530 like box without a display of its own. The rest of the cost is the piling on...

[Txbyker]

I have had limited communications with the factory about it. I know there are new GIA 63s and antennas involved but in the STEC case for VNAV we will need a new MFD since that is where the GFC 700 controls are and then I am thinking perhaps new AP servos. The $35K price is for WAAS/vertical NAV so I am hoping that includes the MFD and AP conversion. I saw a 2005 O2 on Controller with the conversion from STEC to GFC700 but I dont know of anyone on Mooneyspace that has done STEC to GFC conversion.

Adding the Avidyne DFC90 in the STEC hole would be really nice.

Russ

[jlunseth]

I am going to bet it is not allowed by the STC or TSO for the upgrade, but then that could be because Garmin did not want to apply for a suitable certification to begin with.

 

So why again is it that we should go anywhere near putting any glass PFD or MFD in any aircraft?

 

Who knows what the reason for it will be, but there will be some technology in the next tens years, maybe the stuff to comply with ADS-B, that will require upgrading MFD, PFD's and the upgrade path will be enough to think about just throwing the glass out and doing a new install of something else.  If you put glass in, they have you by the proverbial short hairs.

[OR75]

for ADS-B out, there are other ways of complying that do not require upgrading what you have (glass or other) to WAAS

You can install a standalone / remote ADS-B out in the cone (see NavWorks or Freeflight, and I am sure there will be others coming) 

 

by 2020, ATC will want to know where you are when you fly in certain airspace (typically Mode C veil airspace), it does not care whether yourself know where you are

[ghovey]

The Ovations that have converted I have heard have run up to 70k in total cost before everything was done.  I don't know if that is correct but the suspicion is that it is really just a 3-4k problem that Garmin/ and or/ Mooney are taking advantage of to overcharge their customers.  We know that the Stec autopilots work with Garmin WAAS units.  So what is the real explanation.  I wish someone could actually explain in detail why this is such a big deal.  And if it turns out that they know they can charge 50k for a 5k problem-just say so and let us decide if we want to continue to have anything to do with Garmin and/or Mooney factory.

[VetRepp]

I'm in the same situation. And will need to upgrade to WAAS for the mandatory ADS-B by 2020.  I'm waiting (hoping) for a better solution by then.

But it seems to me that with the 150 (whatever the number is) Mooneys plus the Beeches, Cesnas and Diamonds in the same situation, there should be enough consumer (if not class action) pressure  to compel Garmin / Mooney / and others to offer a better solution. I'm just saying IMHO ... (maybe I'm too nieve in light of the legacy of Garmin greed).

 

[OR75]

I'm in the same situation. And will need to upgrade to WAAS for the mandatory ADS-B by 2020.  I'm waiting (hoping) for a better solution by then.

But it seems to me that with the 150 (whatever the number is) Mooneys plus the Beeches, Cesnas and Diamonds in the same situation, there should be enough consumer (if not class action) pressure  to compel Garmin / Mooney / and others to offer a better solution. I'm just saying IMHO ... (maybe I'm too nieve in light of the legacy of Garmin greed).

 

Again, maybe not ideal for you but your ~5k solution for the mandatory ADS-B already exists with remote ADS-B systems (check Freeflight or NavWorX ...I am sure more like that will come before 2020). 

I will not have to go that route since I have a WAAS GPS.  But I would definitely consider it as an alternative to your 70k option

[Piloto]

I have a GNS 530AW coupled to a Century 31 autopilot and found the coupled LPV approaches very handy and accurate. I am shock by the high price for the WAAS upgrade for the G1000. For that high price it looks to me that they are replacing the old G1000 with a whole new unit. Glad I have the 530AW.

 

José 

[carusoam]

Is this a driving force to have a GTN nav/com supply the waas signal and leave the G1000 for everything else that it does?

Something logical seems to be missing???

Best regards,

-a-

[N601RX]

Is this a driving force to have a GTN nav/com supply the waas signal and leave the G1000 for everything else that it does?

Something logical seems to be missing???

Best regards,

-a-

I was thinking the same thing.

[Marauder]

Is this a driving force to have a GTN nav/com supply the waas signal and leave the G1000 for everything else that it does? Something logical seems to be missing??? Best regards, -a-

How are you going to drive the output? Can the G1000 accept an outside Nav signal?

[carusoam]

Adding an input would cost less than $70k even if I had to earn an EE degree along the way.

The Garmin folks are pretty bright. I would think they have a way to make this happen to benefit themselves and their customer at the same time.

Do we not have a better source of information? Word directly from the manufacturers would be preferred...

I'm aligning with the other behemoths....BK and anyone else that shares data between boxes...(Aspen, SkyRadar and...)

I would prefer to be in the camp of people that buy directly from the factory (Mooney and Garmin). But, unfortunately, I'm unable...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Adding an input would cost less than $70k even if I had to earn an EE degree along the way. The Garmin folks are pretty bright. I would think they have a way to make this happen to benefit themselves and their customer at the same time. Do we not have a better source of information? Word directly from the manufacturers would be preferred... I'm aligning with the other behemoths....BK and anyone else that shares data between boxes...(Aspen, SkyRadar and...) I would prefer to be in the camp of people that buy directly from the factory (Mooney and Garmin). But, unfortunately, I'm unable... Best regards, -a-

Anthony - I'm not too familiar with the G1000 series but did look at the G500/600 series before settling on the Aspens. I assume the G1000 has an HSI. On the G500 series you can attach another Nav source to the unit, the same with the Aspens. I would think that the G1000 would accept another GPS input, one that could be WAAS capable. Your existing non WAAS G1000 GPS source would be relegated to enroute Nav and you could switch to the second Nav for the LPV type approaches. Has anyone gone down that route with an avionics shop to see if that could be supported? In my situation, I installed the GTN650 as the primary Nav for usage with the Aspen. My Narco is fed into the Aspen to support VOR or ILS operations in case the Garmin goes belly up. Can't you do the same? Just use a WAAS GPS? As for the situation with these units, it may be a licensing issue rather than just a technology issue. If I understand the situation correctly, the G1000 was certified as part of the airframe. It was not an add-on later like a TSOd aftermarket radio. This could be simply what is going on. The other possibility is Garmin doesn't want to play nice. I have already seen what they did with Aspen on the Connected Pilot situation. When you are the gorilla on the perch, you have nowhere to go but down if you can't protect your market share. The first step in that process is protecting your proprietary information, such as your operating firmware. If this were the case, I would hope they would allow interfacing to their own aftermarket hardware. I will be calling my avionics shop tomorrow since my plane is there. I will ask...

[ghovey]

The problem isn't really the ADS-B. The problem is flying coupled RNAV approaches with the STEC autopilot. I would like to know what the plan is for these planes. If the plan is "pay the money and stop whining" then I have a few questions, for example Garmin and Mooney were selling new airplanes in 2007 with Avionics that were not WAAS capable-ever, did they disclose this to the buyers. Garmin knew about the issue because they were already upgrading 530s and had apparently been in development of their own proprietary autopilot well before these aircraft were sold.

[Danb]

It is my understanding that it is Mooney not Garmin I had a Beech mgr of avionics who has an in with Garmin and was told the conversion is easy and could be done cost effectively but the stec model g series of Mooneys were type cert with the stec and there would be testing by mooney and the whole faa process. Basically they jumped the gun w/o the gfc not ready in 2005 so mooney went for the glass wo the gfc and we are left hanging...the Garmin rep told me what he could provide to go to waas with stec but would need to hang experimental on the plane. Hopefully the new co. Will help. But I doubt it. Screwed again. Waas upgradeable blah blah. That's what I was told when I purchased in 2005. Screwed again

[VetRepp]

If the problem is flying coupled approaches - Couldn't they provide a reasonable solution but with the disclamer that autopilot coupled approaches not authorized - as appears on some approach plates.

(I have the G1000 w/ STEC 55 and personally hand fly the approaches that have electronic vertical guidance -I find this autopilot lacks in this area)

[ghovey]

You should have the autopilot checked out.  My STEC flies the ILS perfectly without incident, and I have flown a fair number of them including to minimums at night.

A solution needs to be found, how hard is it to certify Garmin avionics with STEC autopilots when all of the avionics shops across America are selling upgraded glass panels with Garmin boxes and STEC autopilots?  And yes this affects hundreds of aircraft not just Mooney.  84 sold in 2005,about 60 in 06 and I don't know how many with STEC sold in 07 but at least a few.

[Marauder]

Ok Gentlemen... I spent a wonderful afternoon with Penn Avionics and had a chance to talk to them about your G1000s. Basically, you're screwed.... Sorry for being blunt. It is an integration problem. They said a similar issue exists with other non-WAAS G1000 systems found in Cessnas and Beech. The worst case situation apparently is the Grumman series who are no longer in business at all.

 

What they said is because of the integration of the G1000 with the airframe (I'm guessing aircraft parameters are fed into these units), autopilot and in some cases software from the airframe manufacturer being involved, it is designed and certified this way. In order to modify it, would require recertification.

 

Not a good message.

[OR75]

The problem isn't really the ADS-B. The problem is flying coupled RNAV approaches with the STEC autopilot. I would like to know what the plan is for these planes. If the plan is "pay the money and stop whining" then I have a few questions, for example Garmin and Mooney were selling new airplanes in 2007 with Avionics that were not WAAS capable-ever, did they disclose this to the buyers. Garmin knew about the issue because they were already upgrading 530s and had apparently been in development of their own proprietary autopilot well before these aircraft were sold.

i won't disagree with you but was it known in 2007 that WAAS would be requirement ?

in fact WAAS is still not a requirement now that I think about it. ADS-B was probably in works i believe.

the same goes for many products: I am sure the iPad I am typing on right now will stop being supported by apple. sometime in the future , new apps will be developped for operating systems that will not be available for this ipad. apple knows it and i do too.

of course, it is not the same $$$ figure. but again, the glass avionics is close to the tech model.

[ghovey]

Yes, you are correct that WAAS is not a requirement to fly the airplane.  But it is a requirement to fly coupled RNAV approaches with perfectly fine equipment that is completely capable of working-except for the Mooney company and Garmin. 

People were told that they could upgrade-but they weren't told they had to tear out their old autopilot, put in a new autopilot and pay 50k+ for an avionics system that was BRAND NEW!!

In ten years if they tell me that they aren't supporting G1000, oh well that will be a bummer but they will also have stopped supporting 530s and 430s and 500s and every other system they designed before 2010.  And we pilots will have learned a valuable lesson about computers in airplanes, while the computer in your house or business needs to be replaced every three years, the new price is always lower.  In airplanes we do not have that experience or option. 

I learned to fly with steam gauges and it is fine to go back-only this time I would stay all electric, or,  we may all end up converting our airplanes to experimental-because that is the unintended consequence that happens when the market place does not function properly due to poor regulation and monopolies.

At the end of the day the Mooney Ovation is the best long distance two person airplane on the market.  It is a shame that Mooney factory and Garmin are trying to make it obsolete.

[ghovey]

Thanks Marauder for the info.  We are all just looking for the straight story. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

This might seem a little crazy, but for nearly the same 70K you might be able to just can the G1000 and go with a new panel and the G500 (actually only the GDU 620 if they would sell that alone), GTN 750/GTN650 combo, GDL88 and GTX330ES and either the MVP-50 or the JPI 930.  This has the benefit of being able to upgrade in the future.  It seems like it should be possible to use the GDC 74A air data computer, the GRS 77 AHARS, the GMU44 Magnetometer from the G1000 setup.  Although I like the G1000, I would NEVER buy one because of the lack of upgrade possibilities.