Another touch and go incident

[Jamie]

practicing the full takeoff, climb, cruise, approach, landing procedure in full stop landings with no shortcuts is both a challenge and practice for real landings and phases of flight.

lol. Real landings.

My practice helps me put the airplane where I want it, when I want it. The only risky aspect of this seems to be the "omg you might retract the gear instead of the flaps" aspect, and while I don't consider that a big deal, I can eliminate it by using only take off flaps (if required).

What about the other aspect of this? What about those times when you CANT make a full stop? Me? No prob. Do it all the time. Someone who always practices by the book, full stop, taxi back? Hmmmm. Maybe. But they're now in uncharted territory and making it up as they (try to) go. I just go around.

[N601RX]

I'm sure both the people in this thread thought it would never happen to them either, but it did. The bottom line is that this happens 3 or 4 times a year to people who never thought they would flip the gear switch instead of the flap switch. Also consider the other pilot a few months ago who had the thread about the 709 ride and was basically uninsurable afterwards. That's enough to keep me from doing them.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8548-expensive-brain-fart/

lol. Real landings.My practice helps me put the airplane where I want it, when I want it. The only risky aspect of this seems to be the "omg you might retract the gear instead of the flaps" aspect, and while I don't consider that a big deal, I can eliminate it by using only take off flaps (if required).What about the other aspect of this? What about those times when you CANT make a full stop? Me? No prob. Do it all the time. Someone who always practices by the book, full stop, taxi back? Hmmmm. Maybe. But they're now in uncharted territory and making it up as they (try to) go. I just go around.

[Jamie]

From that post:

 

I developed the practice of moving the flaps on roll out to place more weight on the wheels and reduce float.On this unfortunate day, due to the perceived excessive float, as soon as I felt the tires touch the runway, I reached over to pull the flaps up...only..I didn't hit the flap switch...I pulled the gear switch out sufficient to unlock the gear, then apparently let it go---but too late.

From the description he was attempting what's advocated here... a full stop landing.

It's becoming clear to me that T&Gs aren't dangerous. What's dangerous is messing with the flaps while rolling. Too many people apparently practice touch and gos as a "landing" followed immediately by a "take off", with the by-the-book reconfigurations occuring rapidly in between.

This is wrong. A T&G is a special procedure. And, before anyone else jumps in and calls this something other than a "real landing", I'll note that the whole point of a T&G is to allow a pilot to practice the aspects of a take off and landing (to me, mostly the landing part) that ARE in common with a "real landing".

If you have an retractable gear aircraft in which you can't take off in a landing flap configuration, you probably shouldn't do T&Gs. It's funny a skyhawk is mentioned above... I don't know if you can take off with 40deg of flaps. Maybe? Never tried. You pretty much have to get those barn doors up, at least part way. But since the gear is welded down, you're not going to retract by mistake. On mine? Meh. Open the throttle and climb out. If you can screw that up, you were destined to fail anyway.

You guys do what you want. I know I will.

[201er]

If you avoid closing cowl flaps, don't reduce RPM, don't lean mixture, don't push them back in, don't extend flaps, don't set trim in order to make touch and go safer/easier... then you're not practicing real landings.

[Hank]

If you avoid closing cowl flaps, don't reduce RPM, don't lean mixture, don't push them back in, don't extend flaps, don't set trim in order to make touch and go safer/easier... then you're not practicing real landings.

Do you close cowl flaps, reduce RPMs and lean the mixture on climbout? I don't, that's levelling off for cruise. Sure, target EGT works well, but not at pattern altitude--I'm pulling throttle back before turning crosswind to stop the climb and establish 100 mph for pattern entry. From that point, it's a normal landing until after the nose wheel touches--flaps up while holding throttle to idle (can't reach the gear switch in my Mooney from there; where's yours?), then throttle forward for an otherwise normal takeoff except I'm running 40-50 mph and I'm not at the numbers.

[201er]

Do you close cowl flaps, reduce RPMs and lean the mixture on climbout? I don't, that's levelling off for cruise.

Downwind = level = cruise

[Hank]

Isn't that kind of fast???

[alex]

Downwind = level = cruise?

For what amounts to less than a minute, especially if your gear is out, abeam the numbers in pattern work? If you're in a non-precision approach prior to reaching the FAF for a "real landing" you may be straight and level for a while longer than you would be in downwind are you still in cruise config? Not judging just asking....

[201er]

Isn't that kind of fast???

Isn't it kind of a Mooney?

 

I'm not saying I'm doing 75% cruise! But I am configuring the airplane for cruise even if it's momentary. That means leveling off, trimming for level flight, closing cowl flaps, setting mp, setting rpm, leaning mixture, checking that everything that needs to be off or retracted actually is. Isn't that what cruise is? I'm probably only doing 2100RPM/22" on 6gph so it doesn't go over gear extension speed and abeam I can drop em and go for approach config.

 

I always thought pattern work was supposed to be a simulation of all phases of flight... not just working on repeated touch downs.

[Hank]

I use T&G to practice landing and taking off . . . There's no time to 'configure for cruise, lean, etc.' I don't do that on my night currency full-stops, either.

When I enter the pattern for what you call a 'real landing,' I try to be near pattern speed, often have Takeoff flaps down and prop forward.

On a T&G or go-around, I'm pulling power on crosswind to not blow through pattern altitude and airspeed. The prop and mixture are full forward and stay there, what's the point in pulling them back to push them forward in five more seconds? On a miss, I'm usually in a full power climb going somewhere, everything forward again and gear up to get a decent climb rate.

The work isn't on the touchdown, it's about how to reach that touchdown. I've not had very many landings that are alike; throw one in after an instrument approach, just like when I'm going somewhere, landing is my goal, I want to practice getting there from the FAF. If the runway is long enough and clear at the far end, there's no need to stop . . . .

[1964-M20E]

What about the other aspect of this? What about those times when you CANT make a full stop? Me? No prob. Do it all the time. Someone who always practices by the book, full stop, taxi back? Hmmmm. Maybe. But they're now in uncharted territory and making it up as they (try to) go. I just go around.

 

This very thing happened to me late last year when doing some IMC work.  I was having problems with the airport lighting and I ended up landing long and fast and the end of the runway was approaching fast and by the way the runway is just over 3000 feet.  TnGs I think made a difference here no thought other than time to go and not complete the landing.  I went full forward with throttle mixture and prop got the plane airborne and flying again.  If I had not done this I would have ended up in the fence just like the ones in the incident that started this thread.

[WardHolbrook]

The risk is accidentally retracting the gear during the transition and totalling your airplane 3 or 4 MS members in the past year have done this. 

There was also a recent YouTube video showing a nice Bonanza sliding down the runway after an inadvertent gear retraction. It happens and it happens several times per year.  

[PMcClure]

 

This very thing happened to me late last year when doing some IMC work.  I was having problems with the airport lighting and I ended up landing long and fast and the end of the runway was approaching fast and by the way the runway is just over 3000 feet.  TnGs I think made a difference here no thought other than time to go and not complete the landing.  I went full forward with throttle mixture and prop got the plane airborne and flying again.  If I had not done this I would have ended up in the fence just like the ones in the incident that started this thread.

 

This is how I understand the article. The student was practicing landings, landed long and the instructor decided they didn't have room to take off again and decided to overrun rather than try a take-off. The only mention of a touch and go maneuver was from the reporter who probably messed up his notes. But it is not clear from the article exactly what happened. 

 

That said, I don't do touch and goes in complex aircraft and don't see the need to. The Ovation handbook does say that T&G are not recommended. I do practice go arounds from decision height. That is fun enough. 

[bumper]

I can't think of many aircraft that deal with high and fast approaches worse than a Mooney! Maybe a dozen years ago someone on a previous Mooney forum posted a video taken by his passenger going into a narrow tree lined strip in the San Juan Islands (can't remember which island). It was classic. From almost the start of the video any "normal" Mooney pilot was saying to himself, "You're too high!" They did overrun, then started a ground loop that had them stopping just feet from the fence.

 

Anyone remember that or have a link to it??

 

bumper

[GeneS]

last time I was in Gulfport, MS there was an all white 757 shooting touch and gos.  Seems like a bad idea to me.

[aviatoreb]

I saw a blimp doing touch and gos today.  It was the Metlife with identifier "Snoopy 2".  Funniest radio chatter I ever heard.

[jetdriven]

last time I was in Gulfport, MS there was an all white 757 shooting touch and gos.  Seems like a bad idea to me.

A multi-pilot crew jet airplane doing touch and goes doesnt have so much in common with a Mooney. It is a different realm. For one, I have done them in the CRJ and even the 1900D, but it was a non-standard manuever and briefed as such. The flying pilot sets the airplane down, the non-flying pilot resets the flaps to 20, call for the flying pilot to bring the engines to 50% and stabilize, then hit the TOGA button which sets takeoff thrust, then the V1 call, both hands on the yoke, and off you go.  With all this, we still don't do them in the jets either. The millitary does, however, they don't have simulators and must get the 3 landings every 90 days in the aircraft. When the meter is running and the cost is 300-400$$  minute, that's what they do to save money. However, they still pile them up pretty regularly.

[fantom]

Lots of those military guys flying T-37s and T-38s are in pilot training with an instructor along, and of course they aren't picking up the bill for anything aircraft related. I've never done a T&G in my Mooney.....sorta like landing grass, dirt and gravel.

[fantom]

 sorta like landing grass, dirt and gravel.

[Earl]

Likewise I don't do touch and goes any more either.  While I don't think they are inherently unsafe they do add an additional element of risk to training with little to no benefit.  But others do not see the added risk or feel they can properly manage it and I for one am not going to throw a stone at them.  It's really a risk management decision and I am erring on the side of caution.  We know there is added risk of an incident with T&G's because they happen.  Never do them and you totally eliminate that risk.  For me its an easy decision.  But then I probably likewise engage in other operational tactics that others avoid and take on that added risk when compared to them.  

 

Its all about risk management and personal decisions and there is no right or wrong answer for everyone on this particular issue.  Now flying into a thunderstorm, there is the same answer for everyone.  

[RJBrown]

Most impressive set of touch and goes I ever saw was up in Layton Utah. I was at a friends house about a mile south of Hill AFB back in about 93. 2 B-1 bombers were doing full circuits. Take off with wings out circle out over the lake with wings tucked in then coming around to the north extending their wings and landing. The pair did about 8 circuits, had me mesmerized the whole time. My friend had no interest, thought it was just noise, happened all the time.

[M016576]

Touch and goes were a regular part of training when I was flying the FA-18. Every landing you made, though, was "carrier style" in that their was no flare and you held a 3 degree glideslope and 8.1 degrees angle of attack until you impacted the runway at 650-750fpm, all while visually flying the IFLOS (commonly referred to as "the ball") . I've probably done somewhere north of a 1000 touch and goes at the field, and maybe 20 on the carrier (touch and goes are rare on the boat- only done during CQ). But that was different than a single engine GA aircraft: we have good reason to do touch and goes in the Navy- and that reason is a 90000 ton floating piece of American sovereignty. In the F-15C, we don't do touch and goes except during formal training courses and even then, only in the D model with an IP in the back seat.

I've done exactly 9 touch and goes in the mooney. All on a 10,000 x 200' runway. All done at night, to regain night currency to carry pax. I wouldn't do them in the mooney on anything shorter than 6000'. Then again I don't practice landings any more or spend time (dollars) beating up the pattern... One is enough for me. If I get to the point where my landings need "work", or i take a long break from flying the mooney, I'll probably either be in the stop and go camp, or just taxi back and take off again.

[Marauder]

 

 

I've done exactly 9 touch and goes in the mooney. All on a 10,000 x 200' runway. All done at night, to regain night currency to carry pax. I wouldn't do them in the mooney on anything shorter than 6000'. Then again I don't practice landings any more or spend time (dollars) beating up the pattern... One is enough for me. If I get to the point where my landings need "work", or i take a long break from flying the mooney, I'll probably either be in the stop and go camp, or just taxi back and take off again.

 

Sorry to touch on this, but night currency under Part 91 requires landings to be a full stop landing.

 

 

1. Night takeoff and landing experience.
   1. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and--
      1. That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
      2. The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).
   2. The takeoffs and landings were required by paragraph ((1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is--
      1. Approved by the Administrator for takeoffs and landings, if the visual system is adjusted to represent the period described in paragraph ((1) of this section; and
      2. Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

[M016576]

Good thing I never actually ended up carrying passengers at night, then! If I ever do, I'll be sure to make them full stops!

Geez... I should get back into the FAR's.....

[Marauder]

Good thing I never actually ended up carrying passengers at night, then! If I ever do, I'll be sure to make them full stops! Geez... I should get back into the FAR's.....